We move to the next part of today's business. This part of the meeting is even more formal than the previous part and is for the petitioners, who will try to interrogate their issues with committee members. The questions are contained in the new petitions that have been submitted. I invite to the table the first group of students from Fraserburgh academy.PE1242, by Mark Buchan, calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Government, as part of its international development policy, particularly in relation to Africa, to lobby the Prime Minister as leader of the G20 host nation to take urgent action to address extreme poverty and deprivation in Africa and to reduce the debt of African countries. Alongside young Mark Buchan today are fellow second-year students at Fraserburgh academy: I welcome Jenna McDonald and Fiona Henderson. You have a few minutes to explain your petition and then we will do our best to get you through. You will be absolutely fine. On you go, Mark. Or is Jenna McDonald taking control?
Official Report · Committee
New Petitions
G20 Summit (International Development) (PE1242)
Speakers
Choose an MSP to read only their contributions- Mark Buchan Fraserburgh Academy 13
- Frank McAveety Lab 10
- Bill Butler Lab 7
- Robin Harper Green 3
- Nanette Milne Con 3
- Marlyn Glen Lab 3
- Nigel Don SNP 3
- Anne McLaughlin SNP 2
- Jenna McDonald Fraserburgh Academy 1
- John Wilson SNP 1
- John Farquhar Munro LD 1
- Alan Morrison 1
The record
48 contributionsBefore we start, on behalf of Fraserburgh academy I wish Mr Butler a happy birthday.
Thank you. You have revealed the secret that I was keeping from the committee members.
You have suitably embarrassed him, Jenna, so well done; that was a good start.
My petition calls on the Scottish Parliament to lobby Gordon Brown, as leader of the UK, the G20 host nation, to take urgent action to address extreme poverty in Africa and to further drop the debt.I have been interested in the problems of poverty in Africa ever since I went to see U2 in 2005. I was inspired by Bono to try to do something about poverty in Africa but, as I was in primary school, there was no further action that I could take.Recently, I went on to the ONE organisation's website and I saw that, nearly four years after Live 8 and the make poverty history campaign, little action has been taken. Africa is still in the same state of deprivation. After that, I wrote to the First Minister, Alex Salmond, to ask him to lobby Gordon Brown to invite an African representative to the G20. Last month, I was given the opportunity in my modern studies class to come up with a petition for the Public Petitions Committee's visit to the school. That is how my petition came about.The number of people living in poverty in Africa is shockingly high. More than 1 billion people across the world have no access to clean water. There are huge death tolls from diseases such as HIV/AIDS, tuberculosis and malaria. Many of those deaths could be prevented with an injection that would cost less than 25p.Child mortality is also a huge problem. Every year, nearly 10 million children die without seeing their fifth birthday.One person dies due to extreme poverty in Africa every three seconds. From the time I began this presentation to the time I finish, 60 more people will have died due to extreme poverty. Every year, 18 million people die as a result of poverty. That is the equivalent of the combined populations of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland multiplied by two.The Scottish Parliament needs to take action. People are suffering and we, in this modern economic country, need to do something more. We need to get behind the cause for Africa and show the Prime Minister that here in Scotland we support the cause to make poverty a thing of the past.The Scottish Government's international development policy includes as an objective:"to complement the work of the UK Government and other international development programmes",but it says nothing specific on debt relief. The Scottish Government must show Gordon Brown that more support needs to be given. That would complement the work of the UK Government and that of development programmes in Africa.Africa is calling for help. In this day and age, in the 21st century, no one should be subjected to poverty. Africa needs the support of the Scottish Government. Today, here in Fraserburgh, we are in a position where we can make a difference. The petition is not for me, but for Africa. Let us take the steps to make poverty history once and for all.I will finish with a quote from Jayne and Edwin Wiseman of the Star Fish Project who started an orphanage in Kenya:"Help us help Africa help itself."
That was fantastic. Well done.I invite committee members to respond to the issues that have been raised.
Mark, that was an excellent and moving presentation. It is obvious that the petition stems from your own feelings from Live 8 and seeing Bono and U2 those few years ago. Things are still desperately bad in Africa, especially sub-Saharan Africa. As well as working with Malawi, which is one of the poorest countries in Africa, should the Scottish Government make representations to the UK Government to release a specific amount of money for Africa, or should it press for more resources and training, as well as money, in order to help African citizens to help themselves? What do you think, Mark?
It is a case of money and resources. Africa needs things like education. Across the world, 2.6 million children are without primary education. Things like that need to be addressed as much as the debt. Without education, how will Africa's youth ever progress?
As you probably know, the current Scottish Government and the previous Scottish Executive, which was led by Jack McConnell, have used non-governmental organisations to send out folk with expertise in education and health to Africa. Obviously, you think that such assistance is necessary. Do you think that we also need to wipe out the debt of those countries as part of a three-pronged approach?
The debt is an important aspect. If their debt is wiped out, Governments can use their own money and resources to start to improve living conditions.
Mark, I think you did particularly well there. I do not think that you are nervous; if you are, you are certainly hiding it very well.Everyone has heard the figures—that somebody dies in Africa every three seconds. However, it was a telling moment when you said that, from the start of your presentation to the end, 60 people would have died. That really got me. That kind of comment brings it home how important it is that the world does something.I have worked in developing countries, not in Africa but in Sri Lanka, so I have a big interest in international development. I want to congratulate you on your petition; it is obvious that you have been working on these issues for a number of years.I am sure that you will be making your own representations, but this committee would certainly be willing to write to the Scottish Government to ask for its views on debt relief and on getting rid of debt, and to ask what representations the Scottish Government is making to the UK Government. Any correspondence that we receive would be copied to you, so you would be involved in the process.
I am another MSP who has worked abroad: I was in Africa for two years, in Kenya. It was a wonderful experience, and it made me very aware of the need for education in Africa and of the tremendous opportunities that education can bring.I am sure that you are aware of the figures on debt, which have been pulled together for committee members. Despite the fact that the world agreed that it would start to pay off Africa's debt, the debt has actually gone up. It was $225 billion in 2000, and it is $256 billion in 2009. I have been trying to do the sums in my head, but I am pretty certain that the money that the United States Government and the British Government have managed to pull together to bail out our banks could have paid off Africa's debt completely.There is a very strong case for this committee to send your petition on to the Government as a chivvying note saying, "Come on, when are you going to make a dent in the enormous debt in Africa, which is not even reducing but is still building up? You'll have to work with other countries, because we're not going to do it on our own." Well done on your petition, Mark.
I, too, would like to say that Mark's presentation was excellent. It is a very important subject.A concern that is often expressed, and one that I share, relates to the use of funding that goes to some of these countries, where the Governments might be a bit more corrupt than Governments in countries that we are more familiar with. If the committee is going to write to our Government, we should raise that concern. Do you have any thoughts on how we can ensure that funding goes to the right place, so that the people who benefit are the people who ought to benefit, rather than Government officials who are lining their own pockets?
It is true that a lot of the Governments are corrupt. People from the Star Fish Project in Kenya have told me that, when shoebox appeals go to Africa, the boxes are often kept to one side so that politicians can come and take what they like before everything else is sold. A lot of the contents do not get given to the poor.If we give the money to politicians, it could be used in ways that do not benefit the poor. The best way to address the problem would be for the money to go to development. Targeting education, clean water, and the epidemics of HIV/AIDS and malaria would probably be the best way to ensure that the money does not go to waste but goes towards developing the country and taking people out of poverty.
So you are promoting self-help—encouraging people to help themselves. I agree with that. I have experience of such initiatives, not in Africa but in one of the countries of the former Soviet Union. People there have been helped, but previously we had found that goods that we sent ended up in the wrong hands. Your comments were very helpful, thank you.
My question is along the same lines as Nanette Milne's question about how we resolve the problem of poverty in Africa. As Mark said when he talked about the Star Fish Project, aid that goes to Africa is usually redistributed not by the organisations that are trying to alleviate poverty but by Government agencies that take the goods and moneys, which do not reach the poor. We could eradicate debt in Africa, but that will not resolve the issue of getting resources to those who are most in need. As Nanette Milne suggested, some countries with the worst poverty are in civil war. Alternatively, they are almost dictatorships and—to counter Bill Butler's earlier comment—it costs a lot of money to police those states. How do we get resources directly to those who live in poverty, so that we alleviate the problems that exist for many citizens of African countries?
As I said in my presentation, I wrote to Alex Salmond, the First Minister, to ask him to lobby Gordon Brown, as leader of the G20 host nation, and ask him to invite a representative of the African Union to the G20 summit. Gordon Brown has done that. We can build on that if the UK Government and Governments of other powerful countries co-operate with and work alongside the Governments of Africa to find ways in which aid can get through. They should also work to cut debt and give those countries the resources that they need, without the politicians taking more of those resources.
I am always keen on individuals doing what they can. In bringing the petition, Mark, you have definitely done a massive thing, given the publicity. Another way in which individuals can help is by promoting fair trade. Do you want to comment on that?
The fair trade movement is good, because farmers who in the past did not receive the right amount of money for what they did—and went further into poverty as a result—now get the money that they deserve. The movement is starting to make good progress and is really helping the cause of making poverty history.
That is something that everybody can contribute to, in schools and other organisations.
Is Fraserburgh academy doing any development or partnership work? If not, given that the rector is here, this might be a good opportunity to put pressure on him.
We had a diversity day, which was about winter festivals and Christmas in foreign countries from which we have pupils in the school. Fairness and equality have been well promoted in the school. The school has done good work and we need to continue to make progress.
Members from Glasgow will know that secondary schools in the area have worked well with identified projects. Part of the S6 development programme involves youngsters going out for a week, near the tail end of the academic year, when all the exams are finished. That is humbling, because they spend a year fundraising and then give their time to do something. The effect of identifying for young people their responsibilities as global citizens is remarkable—they are much better citizens and young people as a result. However, there can be cynicism. Your mates might say, "Why are you bothering about this, Mark? Everyone is selfish." How do you deal with it when your mates ask why you are bumping on about the issue, or say that you just heard about it on a U2 album or Bono said something about it? You are motivated and the issue matters to you, but what do you say to your pals when they are a bit more sceptical and think that it is okay to buy certain products?
It is not so much what I say, but what I show them. There is a photograph from the Sudan famine in 1994—you might have seen it, because it is shown fairly often when people talk about poverty. The picture is of a young child of one or two years of age, a kilometre from a United Nations food camp, crawling past a vulture that is waiting for the child to die. It is a disturbing image. When I saw that photo, I thought, "That is a waste of human life. Real people are suffering in Africa while I'm here in Scotland, which is economically powerful and part of the UK." I thought that I needed to do something and make a difference.
We found that even though the schools had 4,000 pupils and had very basic provision all the kids were smiling. Back in Scotland, teenagers are manically depressed about the weather, not having the latest fashion and whatever. We need to balance our priorities. Parliamentarians here and in the UK certainly feel a very strong responsibility to do as much as we can, if not more.
I agree. We have been born in a powerful country that has a strong Government and strong allies, and it is our responsibility to do something for the less well off countries in the third world.
When you say to your fellow students, "I'm not doing this just because I saw Bono on TV", and tell them about the stark reality, do the majority of them respond positively? Do they want to get involved?
They have responded positively. We were talking earlier about social networking sites; a group that I started on ending poverty in Africa has had a lot of support from my friends. They have also really supported me in my work on this petition and in what I have been trying to do to make a difference for Africa.
That is excellent.Earlier my colleagues asked you about fair trade. Is there a fair trade campaign in the school? If not, would it be a good idea to make it a Fairtrade school?
It would be a good idea if the canteen and vending machines stocked fairly traded products. After all, we are already a health promoting school.
You should probably take that up. You seem to me to be a natural campaigner.Is it the case that it does not matter who does what as long as Governments, not only at Holyrood and Westminster but across the world, co-operate? Indeed, is the key to this issue simply to make it clear that although the Scottish and UK Governments are playing a part, they have to play more of a part, and hopefully will?
All the Governments have to play a part. They all agree that poverty must be addressed, but they have to co-operate and focus on the issue. They have to say, "We're powerful countries. We have to make a difference for the poor of the world."
Following the point about corruption, I think that it is important not to confuse Parliaments with Governments. I attended, on behalf of the Scottish Parliament, a week-long conference in London organised by the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association on the subject of corruption in trade and aid. The parliamentarians at that conference were telling us that we must support democracy, particularly in sub-Saharan Africa, to allow them to look at what is happening and to control their Governments. I took that message back to the Scottish Parliament, and you have woken me up to the need to do a bit more to carry it forward. Perhaps the Scottish Parliament could do more to support parliamentarians, particularly in Malawi, in their bid to have more of a say in how money is spent.
I, too, congratulate Mark Buchan on bringing a very important petition to our attention. As you have obviously done a lot of research on this matter, I wonder whether you can give me a few clues to a question that I have.You spoke about debt and trade. I do not know much about economics—these days, I am not sure who does—but people have told me that import tariffs, which put a tax on goods, make it difficult for Africa and other places to trade with more developed countries. I suspect that Americans are as bad as most people on that. Have you researched that? Is that relevant?
I return to the Star Fish Project, which was charged a lot of money for taking old clothes that people in the Fraserburgh area had donated to an orphanage in Nairobi. The project received a big donation from Tesco of summer clothes that had not been sold, and it was charged a considerable amount of money for taking the clothes into the country and giving them to the orphanage.
So customs duties are a problem in both directions.
We are in the final stage of dealing with the petition, which is discussing how we will proceed. You have made it clear that you want the committee to raise issues with the Scottish Government, that you want the Scottish Government to influence what it can within its powers and that you want the UK Government to deal with matters.We will discuss how we will deal with the petition. I am open to suggestions from members.
Mark Buchan has made an incontestable case that is relevant now. Given what colleagues have said, I think that no one will disagree that we should write to ask the Scottish Government to write to ask the UK Government what it is doing about debt relief for African countries in general and in connection with the G20 summit.Mark Buchan talked about co-operation. We should write to ask the First Minister and the Government what support they are offering Scotland-based organisations that are trying to help in countries that suffer extreme poverty. That would begin to address the thrust of the petition that Mark Buchan has submitted.
Do other members have positive suggestions?
It would be worth asking the Scottish Government what it does to assess how well money is being spent—how much of it reaches the people whom it is intended to reach, as Mark Buchan said.
I would like to know what exchange, twinning and educational programmes the Government is involved in with the countries that Mark Buchan's petition concerns.
We could ask not the Scottish Government but the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body how we are supporting parliamentarians in sub-Saharan Africa.
I return to world trade and import tariffs. If we are writing to ask the Government and Gordon Brown about what is being addressed at the G20 summit, that is one issue that needs to be addressed.
Can we ask how the fair trade Scotland programme aids countries?
Mark, you heard the earlier comments about the timescale. We will write to a series of decision makers and authorities about what they can do to address the issues that your petition raises. We will raise the matter directly with the Secretary of State for International Development, the Prime Minister, Scotland's First Minister and key Government departments.As you have petitioned the Parliament, you will be kept up to date. Young Fergus Cochrane is your point of contact. If you want to find out more about the progress that your petition is making, you can e-mail him at the Scottish Parliament. You have his contact details, because you are a petitioner.On the committee's behalf, I say that you are quite frightening, because you are better than any of us. That is a remarkable concession from me. That you, as a second-year pupil, are so confident in front of us is a remarkable testimony to your commitment. I am sure that, whatever you do in life—whether you want to be active in politics—
He has two women with him to support him.
They are there for the next petition, so we will see how the axe falls with the two able women beside Mark.Although you are only in second year, Mark, you are confident, passionate and thoughtful. I was looking round the audience when you were speaking about what motivated you and I could sense the audience responding to you. That is a great skill to have. I hope that we can do something that helps you and your petition and that you can use that. Whatever you do in life or apply to do, the fact is that you have been in front of the Public Petitions Committee of the Parliament, which few young men or women will be able to say that they have achieved when applying to do something. You should never underestimate what you have done today. On behalf of the committee, I can say that we genuinely appreciate that and I hope that we can respond to some of the issues that you raised. Thanks very much for your time, Mark. If you want, you can stay for the next petition, with our permission, and avoid going back to class, if that is helpful. I trust that that is okay, Mr Morrison.
Yes.
In this meeting
Everything on 30 Mar 2009 →- Scottish Parliament Public Petitions Committee Monday 30 March 2009 Petitions · 1
- Petitions Process Inquiry Petitions · 87
- New Petitions Petitions · 48
- New Petitions Petitions · 41
- New Petitions Petitions · 29
- Current Petitions Petitions · 30
- Current Petitions Petitions · 50
- Current Petitions Petitions · 5
- Current Petitions Petitions · 3
- Current Petitions Petitions · 9
- New Petitions (Notification) Petitions · 1
- Petitions Process Inquiry Petitions · 3
The type of each item (debate, statement, questions, members’ business and so on) and the times shown are worked out by this site from headings, the chair’s opening words and the Official Report’s running timestamps. They are not the Parliament’s own classification. Text: the Scottish Parliament Official Report.