Petition PE594 is from Thomas Ross on the subject of amateur boxing in Scotland. The petition calls on the Parliament to ask the Scottish Executive to fund the medical requirement of the AIBA—the international amateur boxing association—to eliminate abuse of amateur boxers in Scotland.Mr Ross is accompanied by Dr Lutton, who is here in support of Mr Ross's petition. I thank Mr Ross for his patience this morning—we have had a long session—but he now has his chance. He may speak to the petition for three minutes. We will then open up the meeting to questions from committee members.
Official Report · Committee
New Petitions
Amateur Boxing (PE594)
Speakers
Choose an MSP to read only their contributions- Thomas Ross 17
- John McAllion Lab 14
- Phil Gallie Con 8
- Helen Eadie Lab 3
- Dr Lutton 2
- Dr Clifford Lutton 1
- John Farquhar Munro LD 1
The record
46 contributionsIn 1980, having been four times Scottish light-heavyweight boxing champion, I left Scotland and emigrated to Canada, where I became subject to the rules contained in the book "Articles and Rules, with Medical Rules, Governing Amateur Boxing in Canada 1981-1983".In Canada, it was deemed that I was not medically fit enough to participate in the sport because of myopia, or short-sightedness. To date, Scotland has no book of that calibre for amateur boxing. The book details the rules and medical rules for boxers.Let me read out the book's introduction, which was written by Dr Joseph Falletta, who is a member of the AIBA—if the committee does not have a copy of the AIBA handbook, I can leave a copy for your perusal.Dr Falletta's introduction states:"Amateur boxing is a sport which introduces a young man to the art of self-defence and in so doing provides a healthy mental and physical recreation for competitors of all ages. Amateur boxing teaches self-discipline, physical fitness, poise and confidence, sportsmanship and a respect for supervision; said supervision is meted out by jury officials, referees, ringside physicians and coaches. In fact, amateur boxing remains the most supervised of all sports.The welfare and physical well being is the essential consideration of each boxer's career. Each boxer is under the constant supervision of an experienced Medical Officer. On joining a Boxing Club, initially each boy is to undergo a complete medical examination for mental and physical fitness. Then, prior to each and every boxing tournament, the boxer must present himself for medical examination to ensure that he is in a fit physical state. Only fit boxers box and in this way the morbidity of amateur boxing remains very minimal.The prevention and treatment of boxing injuries is of paramount importance. As succinctly stated by Ron Olver, British boxing author,‘AN EFFICIENT MEDICAL SYSTEM ENSURES THAT BOXING IS FULLY CONTROLLED WITH THE WELFARE OF THE BOXER ALWAYS THE FIRST CONCERN OF THE APPROPRIATE RULING BODY.'To that end, the following rules and medical regulations are intended to preserve the health and welfare as the highest level of priority with respect to the Canadian Amateur Boxer."I have printed a number of copies for your perusal, but I understand that you have not had time to read them.
If you leave them with us, we will ensure that all members get copies.
The only change that I wish to make to the introduction I read aloud is with reference to "mental and physical fitness". I would like to change the word "physical" to "medical". The intention of the petition is that the medical state of the boxer should dictate whether he is allowed to participate in or is excluded from the contact sport.
As far as you are aware, do other countries in the UK experience difficulties in meeting these medical standards? If so, is funding provided from central Government for that purpose?
It is my understanding that the rest of the British Isles suffers the same fate. In fact, in Northern Ireland, a boxer I used to train attends shows and boxes regularly without being medically examined. Despite the presence of a medical officer, he does not undergo the medical exam that we do in this country, in Wales and in England. The stringent test applies in other countries that I use as a model—namely in Canada, where I was first informed that I was not fit enough to be a participant in the sport. In fact, in 1997, I first wrote to Sam Galbraith on the subject, telling him of my concerns that we did not meet AIBA regulations. It was he who furnished me with the blue AIBA book I mentioned earlier, which concludes that we do not meet the regulations.
You have not answered the part of the question that dealt with funding. Are you aware of any such funding elsewhere in the UK?
If there is, I have never heard of it.
You referred to your own career and to the success that you had. Is it not the case that at that time, amateur boxers did not wear headgear or the same levels of protective clothing, and perhaps had different sizes of gloves? Has progress not been made in the protection of those who participate?
Yes, that is correct. We have progressed in a number of ways. The use of headgear is still in dispute, because boxers will tell you that it inhibits them. One of the aspects of boxing is hearing. Wearing a head guard deflects that hearing sense, and boxers lose a measure of awareness as a result.
I recognise the problem of the expense of medical coverage. Is it not the case that professional boxing is really suffering from a lack of provision of medical back-up, and that that comes down to cost also?
The professional game tends towards medical overkill to treat the symptoms of the accident. I want to prevent accidents, which would reduce costs at one end of the scale, although it would increase costs at the other end.
You used the term "contact sport". An example of a physical sport is rugby, which involves much physical contact. Are comparable medical checks undertaken on participants in that game?
That is not my forte, so I will pass you on to my colleague.
My interest in sports medicine has covered more than 10 sports at international medical level. I was a boxer when I was young and I played rugby at senior level. I am worried about many sports other than boxing, but we are here to talk about boxing, which has the best officials of any amateur sport. It has excellent medical back-up, but that can be improved.Members must bear in mind the theoretical possibility and the practical reality of lack of money. In theory, it would be desirable in many sports to have doctors who are trained for the sport and officials who have relevant first-aid training. That would not cost much. However, computed axial tomography and magnetic resonance imaging scans might cost up to £500 or £600 each if performed privately.I am worried that boxing is an excellent sport that tends to be starved of money. It has always been a cinderella sport but, in my medical opinion, it is excellent. It is the only sport for which participants must pass a medical examination of fitness to compete. A doctor is at the ringside and participants carry a medical card on which everything is recorded. That is done well. I would like doctors to be trained specifically for sports, because a great deal must be known.As rules are strict in boxing, problems are fewer, whereas 30, 40 and 50 years ago, when I was involved, many knockouts used to occur in amateur boxing. Knockouts do not happen often now. Referees are strict and doctors can stop the fight. If anybody is over-matched or unwell, the doctor says, "Stop." Head guards have helped to a point, but they present a larger target. However, in the past five years, I have increasingly seen fewer knockouts. Now, a whole tournament of 15 or 16 bouts can be held without a knockout and a result of referee stops contest might occur four or five times. I would willingly box again and I believe seriously that I was safer competing in a boxing ring than I was when I played rugby as a forward. The scars on my head and any knockouts that I have had came from rugby, not boxing. Other sports—such as karate—are equally dangerous, but we are here to talk about boxing, which needs support. I have always encouraged and will always encourage boxing.
You made the point at which I was aiming: that other sports might offer greater dangers. However, sport these days is supposed to be all-inclusive—we have the Paralympics and other such events. As a doctor, do you think that some conditions could preclude people with some forms of disability from participating in boxing?
The regulations about the medical examination of fitness to box could be improved even more. Scotland has 96 amateur clubs and only about 860 young amateur boxers are registered, but about 2,000 or 3,000 young people attend such clubs and the vast majority who participate in amateur boxing never have a contest. They go for the training and the fitness element. They do not get hurt because they do not get hit.The people who are encouraged to enter contests are strictly supervised and matched well. I have no hesitation in saying that, increasingly, boxing is a safer sport. It would not take much to train doctors fully in the dangerous aspects of competing in boxing at senior level. Those doctors would prevent people from being hurt.The art of all sport is in the participant's being so fit for the sport that they tend not to get hurt. There will always be contact sports, but they need medical input increasingly, because otherwise, insurance companies will eventually decide not to support some sports, because of litigation and other matters.
I have watched boxing in Cardenden in my constituency and my brother used to box. Do you think that those medical standards are not being met because of a lack of funding or is it due to resistance from within the sport?
The medical standards are not being met because there is no money. I can honestly say that I have never taken a fee for doing sports medicine of any kind and I have done it for 54 years. Medicine in sport, especially boxing, would go a long way to helping and the training of the doctors would cost very little. Amateur boxing is a cinderella sport—there are no funds and doctors do not take fees. The clubs therefore rely on the doctors' good will. However, tournaments cannot take place unless there is a doctor there before the match to do the medicals, at the ringside and afterwards.The sport relies on good will and there has to be more than that. Also, 80 per cent of our medical students are female and not so many female doctors are keen on sport, although increasing numbers of young women want to join boxing clubs. I am afraid that I do not approve of contact sport, especially boxing, for women.
That has put you in your place, Helen.I am trying to be clear about exactly what the petition is asking the Parliament to do. We know that the AIBA sets medical standards for the sport across the world through its general council and medical commissioner. Amateur Boxing Scotland and the officials in charge of tournaments in Scotland are required by law to meet those standards. Are you saying that they are not doing that?
That is what I am saying.
They are not meeting the international standards laid down by law.
The sheet of paper that I am holding is the initial medical examination for a boxer in this country. I also have here the booklet containing the Canadian initial medical examination for 1981 to 1983, which states:"The following neurological medical states are a direct contraindication to boxing: …The following states preclude from boxing: …The following disorders preclude from boxing: …"Do you see those statements anywhere on the Amateur Boxing Scotland form?
So international standards are being ignored in Scotland.
They are being ignored.
You would argue that that is the responsibility of Amateur Boxing Scotland and the officials in charge of the tournaments being held here.
Yes.
You would say that they are in breach of their legal requirements under international law.
I would argue further that that is the case in all of Britain but as we are in Scotland, I will confine myself to Scottish issues.
As we must also.
I assume that members of the committee have in front of them copies of letters that I sent to the Prime Minister.
Basically, you argue that international standards are not being met by those involved in boxing in Scotland and that it is time that the Parliament did something about that.
Yes.
Are those standards not mandatory? If we were not meeting the right standards, would we in Scotland or the UK not be barred from participating in international competitions such as the Commonwealth games, the Olympic games and the European championship?
I could not prejudge what the AIBA committee would decide. However, I imagine that it will not be pleased to learn that one of its member states is not fulfilling its obligation on the medical requirements of participants.
I will leave some of the materials that I have brought with me for your perusal.One of the conditions that most affected me was myopia. I was allowed into boxing when I should not have been. The rules in other countries make it clear that that is not allowed. The regulations on the testing of eyesight have been tightened up. I was in contact with Dr Chowla, who is now retired, at the Princess Alexandra eye pavilion. Before he retired, he gave me the opinion that he could examine a person and say yea or nay to their involvement in a contact sport. One eye examination would be sufficient.Although the standards are in place, I would like adherence to them to be improved in this country. I have experienced a detached retina—not through boxing, but through an accident at work. I suffered blindness for six weeks and that is not pretty. In 1980, the cost of the necessary operation in Canada was $12,000 Canadian. I imagine that the cost has doubled or tripled by now. If the cost were to be translated across the pond, an equivalent number of pounds would be involved—it would cost thousands of pounds for just one operation. It is well documented that many detached retinas have resulted from boxing. Gary Mason and Frank Bruno are examples. The history of allowing into boxing people who are not medically fit goes back as far as Archie Moore. At a medical examination for one of his world title fights at the age of 50, he was asked what letters were on the board. Even though his answer was, "What board?" he was still allowed to fight. That kind of thing still goes on and it gives boxing a bad name. I want such practice to be eliminated. I want boxing to be brought out of its current state of disrepute into a state of repute.
I want to reinforce Mr Ross's point about the changing of the phrase "physical fitness" in the AIBA handbook to "medical fitness". That would safeguard any individual who wanted to participate in the sport. It would mean that, no matter how physically fit someone was, they would not be allowed to compete unless they were medically fit.
I will use the vernacular to expand on that point: I was as fit as a butcher's dug when I was 30. You can ask the heavyweight champion of the world how fit I was. Lennox Lewis couldnae have handled me.Even though I was only 12 stone, I was fighting guys who were 6ft 5in tall and who weighed 18 and a half stone. Although I was physically fit, I was not medically fit. No one ever told me that until I went across the pond. I am a proud Canadian, but I will not be proud to be a Scotsman until the issue is resolved.
You made your point very well. Thank you for your evidence. You are free to listen to the discussion about how we should deal with the petition.It is suggested that the committee should write to the Executive to seek its comments on the issues that have been raised. In particular, we should ask it to provide details of its position on the adequacy of current medical standards in amateur boxing in Scotland and to indicate whether it is satisfied that they are being complied with. We should also ask it whether it would consider allocating funding to ensure that the AIBA medical standards are fully adhered to. That would improve the health and safety aspects of amateur boxing in Scotland.It is also suggested that we write to Amateur Boxing Scotland to request details of the measures that it takes to ensure that the AIBA medical standards are complied with. We could also inquire whether it is experiencing difficulties in that area because of lack of funding or for any other reason. Until we receive responses, we could pass a copy of the petition to the Education, Culture and Sport Committee for information.
I have some questions, particularly in relation to the international situation. I would prefer it if we contacted Amateur Boxing Scotland directly. As well as passing on the petition and discussing its implications, we could give an indication of the evidence that has been taken today and could ask for ABS's views before we approach the Scottish Executive.
That would slow things down.
It would. Perhaps we could ask for a swift response. That would mean that we would have a better case.
Do you mean that we should approach the Executive after we receive the information from Amateur Boxing Scotland?
Yes. I think that it is a case of adding to the information. I acknowledge the points that have been made today. I cannot understand why our Olympic, Commonwealth and European people are participating in an international sport if they have not met the international obligations. I would like clarification of that.
Okay, that is a fair point. Steve Farrell suggests that as well as writing to Amateur Boxing Scotland seeking a response to the petition and an answer to the points raised by the petitioners, we could also write to the AIBA to ask what its views are on compliance with the standards in this country. Once we have those two responses we could approach the Executive. Is that agreed?Members indicated agreement.
Thank you. We will obviously keep the petitioners informed of the outcome of the responses that we get.
In this meeting
Everything on 11 Feb 2003 →- Scottish Parliament Public Petitions Committee Tuesday 11 February 2003 (Morning) Petitions · 2
- Current Petitions Petitions · 361
- New Petitions Petitions · 65
- New Petitions Petitions · 46
- New Petitions Petitions · 5
- New Petitions Petitions · 23
- New Petitions Petitions · 1
- Current Petitions Petitions · 3
- Current Petitions Petitions · 1
- Current Petitions Petitions · 6
- Current Petitions Petitions · 10
- Current Petitions Petitions · 3
- Current Petitions Petitions · 4
- Current Petitions Petitions · 1
- Current Petitions Petitions · 3
- Inadmissible Petition Petitions · 1
- Convener's Report Procedure · 2
The type of each item (debate, statement, questions, members’ business and so on) and the times shown are worked out by this site from headings, the chair’s opening words and the Official Report’s running timestamps. They are not the Parliament’s own classification. Text: the Scottish Parliament Official Report.