We will take the next two petitions—PE559 and PE564—together. I welcome Mr Jeremy Carter, Mr Ben Palmer and Mr Bob Graham to the committee; it is a pleasure to have you with us. I will give you a moment or two to settle down, after which we will hear from Mr Ben Palmer on PE559, which calls on the Scottish Parliament to take the necessary steps to support a strategic and environmental assessment of Scotland's renewable energy programme. We will follow the usual format: you have three minutes to speak to the committee, after which committee members will ask questions.
Official Report · Committee
New Petitions
Renewable Energy Programme (Strategic Environmental Assessments) (PE559) Wind Farms (National Strategy) (PE564)
Speakers
Choose an MSP to read only their contributions- Helen Eadie Lab 21
- Bob Graham 13
- Dr Winnie Ewing SNP 12
- Phil Gallie Con 11
- Jeremy Carter Skye Windfarm Action Group 6
- John Farquhar Munro LD 4
- Dorothy-Grace Elder Ind 2
- Ben Palmer Skye Windfarm Action Group 1
The record
70 contributionsGood morning. Thank you for giving us this opportunity to present the petition to the Scottish Parliament. Dr Jeremy Carter will support me if you have any questions of a technical or legislative nature. I will be quite happy to answer questions on anything else.The Skye Windfarm Action Group respectfully petitions the Scottish Parliament for a strategic environmental assessment of the Scottish renewable energy programme. We support the elimination of all unsustainable and polluting sources of energy and their replacement by clean, sustainable sources, in conjunction with a widespread programme of energy conservation. We note with dismay the destructive potential of an energy programme that is based solely on broad targets and commercial self-interest and that relies on site-specific environmental impact assessments, which are often done by developers that have poor environmental records, with planning authorities that are unwilling or unable to address issues of cumulative impact.In particular, we are concerned about the adverse environmental impacts of the existing programme on the social fabric of our fragile communities, on the economic activities on which our communities depend, on our blanket bog and heathland habitats and on our protected birds. For example, the Edinbane wind farm proposal for Skye has already irreparably split our local community. It threatens our prime industry, which is tourism, and will damage large sections of an important carbon store, as well as our golden eagle population. The environmental statement was one of the worst that Dr Anne McCall of RSPB Scotland and the Royal Town Planning Institute had seen, yet the application was approved despite Dr McCall's warning that Highland Council was laying itself open to judicial review. That highlights the inadequacy of the existing system.If Scotland, like Wales, is to become the back yard for England's power consumers, it is essential that the immense potential damage from installations and grid upgrades is properly assessed and minimised. That can be done only at national level, with a moratorium on all commercial renewable energy projects until a sustainable energy strategy for Scotland has been developed. Wind farm Klondiking is unsustainable. Strategic environmental assessment will be mandatory from July 2004, but if offshore wind farm proposals for the Wash, Solway and Thames merit such assessment now, surely the proposals for Scotland do, too.
Mr Graham, do you wish to speak?
Good morning and thank you for giving us the opportunity to be here. I say hello to Dr Winnie Ewing, who probably does not remember me, but she was the MP when I lived in Forres. Like Ben Palmer and Jeremy Carter, I am a confirmed environmentalist and I totally support the principle of renewable energy.My petition PE564 has only 1,000 signatures, but it is representative of the great number of people who are becoming increasingly alarmed about the scale of what is happening. I draw the committee's attention to the map that I included; I think that Steve Farrell may have given members a copy of it. It demonstrates the scale of the problem in Moray and west Aberdeenshire. If all the applications go ahead, the number of turbines in Scotland will almost double. Scotland currently has approximately 267 turbines. I remind members that the circle that they can see on the map has a radius of 14 miles.Developers are using fraudulent and divisive tactics to sell the concept of wind farms to local communities. I have evidence to support that claim. The Scottish Executive is also guilty of producing false figures and of ignoring scientific evidence and well-resourced engineering data.I refer members to the report of the Royal Academy of Engineers. I provided an extract of that report with my submission, of which the clerk has a copy. Brian Wilson, the Minister of State for Industry, Energy and the Environment, commissioned the report, but he seems to have ignored it totally in his recent dissertations to the public. The report states:"The Academy's engineering assessment is highly critical of the Energy Review published by the Cabinet Office Performance and Innovation Unit on 15 February."On the target of 20 per cent from renewables by the year 2020, the report states:"While this is a laudable claim it is over-optimistic and fails to address the fundamental problem with all renewable sources—they are intermittent."The report continues:"The substantial development of new randomly intermittent renewable wind and wave resources is not seen as a practical engineering solution … Detailed engineering studies should be undertaken urgently before policy decisions relying on high levels of intermittent renewable generation are taken."That is a brief summation of what is in that 50-page report.Local planning authorities are pressured by the planning legislation that comes from the Scottish Executive. National planning policy guideline 6 and planning advice note 45 are the two definitive documents that local planning authorities use, which results in unsafe planning decisions by local councils. It is rather ironic that I cannot petition against those local council decisions.Scotland produces 70 per cent more electricity than it uses. I could provide further figures, but I do not want to waste the valuable time that I have. Scotland meets by a long way the target set by the UK Government for renewable energy, which is 10 per cent by 2010. The Scottish Executive claims that 11 per cent of electricity comes from hydropower, but the real figure is 14.69 per cent. If one adds to that the 1 per cent that comes from wind farms, the total is 16 per cent.Ross Finnie has suggested that Scotland should produce up to 18 per cent of electricity from renewable energy by the year 2010. To satisfy Mr Finnie's target, we could shut down Torness power station, which would allow us to bump up the figure for renewable energy to 18 per cent without building one more wind farm, but which would not affect Scotland's ability to supply itself with electricity and export electricity to England. The same applies to the closure of Longannet, except that that would boost the figure for renewable energy to 19 per cent.Apart from a few temporary construction jobs, no jobs are associated with wind farms. The largest wind farm in Europe is run by two people. The only people who benefit financially from wind farms are landowners and developers. The three companies that are involved in the six sites on the map that I have submitted are foreign based. The contract to build wind turbines at Drummuir, which Moray Council is considering, will go out to tender in Europe—that suggests that not much money will come either Scotland's or Moray's way.Wind farms will have no effect on global levels of CO2, particularly if one considers that every year we use 2 per cent more electricity. The 1,000 wind turbines in the UK satisfy around 0.5 per cent of our electricity needs. One does not have to be a mathematician to conclude that, to keep pace with the 2 per cent yearly increase, we would have to build around 4,000 wind turbines. Because wind is intermittent, power stations will be required as back-ups and will not be shut down.
Please bring your remarks to a conclusion, Mr Graham.
Okay. Wind farm applications are contrary to agenda 21, which states that the indigenous population has a right to have a say in what happens to their environment. As a result of planning legislation, local people have little or no input into the planning process. Decisions are made based on pressure from the Scottish Executive. I have demonstrated that there should be a moratorium on wind farm development until there is an effective national strategy for renewables and, more important, until there has been much more public consultation.
Support for the petition has been received by e-mail from Michael Ryan, Mr and Mrs P Metcalfe, Marilyn Henderson, Graham Henderson and Helen Richardson. I remind members that we may not discuss the individual planning applications to which the petitioners have referred. We are to consider the more general issues that they raise.
My point may appear to be opposed to the petition, although I am sympathetic to the petitioners' views. Reference was made to the fact that Scotland generates 70 per cent more energy than it needs. However, at least 90 per cent of the production of our whisky industry is probably excess to Scotland's needs. That is not a bad thing in some respects.Mr Graham, you have provided us with a drawing of a wind turbine, but you omitted to indicate how much such a turbine generates. Can you provide us with that information?
Turbines from the current generation have a mean output of 2MW. However, because of their inefficiency and the random nature of the wind, no turbine has produced more than 27 per cent of its production capacity. That equates to just 0.25MW.
You live not far from Peterhead power station. Do you know the power station?
Yes.
What is the combined output of the two units at Peterhead? How many wind generators would be required to produce that?
You have picked the wrong example.
I will help you. The output of Peterhead power station is about 1,200MW, plus 1,320MW installed capacity. On your figures, that is equivalent to the output of almost all the wind farms that are currently installed in the UK.
You are absolutely correct.
Were there many objections to placing a power station on that nice, compact site?
I am not here to represent views on the compactness of the power station at Peterhead.
The issue is relevant to the evidence that you have given. Your submission shows a cluster of wind farms. It is one thing to generate electricity, but it is another to transmit it. Along with generators, power lines and transmission lines are required to take power away. Are wind farms being clustered to reduce transmission costs and the provision of unsightly transmission lines?
Absolutely not. I am sure that the three developers who are involved in the projects do not consult one another. They target sites that are as close as possible to the national grid. One of the restrictions that Moray Council placed on the applications for Cairn Uish and Paul's Hill was that the cables should run underground, because of the distance between the turbines and the nearest connection to the national grid. At Drummuir, the developers are hoping for reasons of cost to put cables above ground. I do not know whether the planners will allow that.
A comment has been made about the Government's attitude towards wind farms. The Government encourages wind farms and subsidises them heavily. The provision of underground cables would demand even more subsidy. Have you any idea how much that subsidy would be?
Brian Wilson has committed £1.6 billion to beefing up the grid system in Scotland. At a meeting of Highland Council on 15 November, he said that, in effect, he intended to turn Scotland into a wind farm for England. Scotland already has a surplus of electricity and has exceeded by a considerable margin the target that has been set. The sum of £1.6 billion is coming out of taxpayers' pockets.
Is that money to be used for transmission or to subsidise generation?
It is to be used to beef up the grid system. I understand that there are only 400MW of spare capacity on the grid system. If the amount of electricity that is generated increases by more than 400MW, the grid system will collapse. The Government must rebuild the grid system, which will cost consumers £1.6 billion.
I do not quite understand the point, but I will let it go.
Petition PE564 says:"There is no National Strategy for renewable energy".I suggest that, in my long political life, there has never been a strategy for energy. That is the problem. We have gone crazily from one kind of energy to another. The coal industry was treated badly when London decided to go hell for leather for nuclear energy. That situation continues now. A big public reaction has been created because we do not know what to do with the waste, so renewable energy is the soft option to many people and better than nuclear energy. Denmark has done quite well out of renewable energy and, because Scotland is windier and has more violent seas than Denmark, many people have supported renewables. Mr Graham, you said that you support renewables. Which forms do you support?
Sadly, no renewables are commercially available in a form that will provide a reasonable amount of electricity. Investment has not been made in other forms, such as wave power or biomass, which are still at the experimental stage. The hardware for wind turbines is available and will be provided by Europe, because we do not have the technology. The form has been chosen because that is all that there is. No other viable forms of renewable energy exist, which is why we are stuck with the problem of windmills.
The investment in the nuclear industry was colossally greater than any sum that you are talking about, yet Dounreay has not produced one bit of electricity yet and we know all the trouble that it has caused to many people. I do not know whether the cost would take us near to having a strategy, but you are right to say that no strategy exists and that some of the statistics about the amount that can be achieved by such-and-such a year show great optimism. Will wave power be commercially viable?
It is possible that wave power will eventually be commercially viable, but that is hypothesis. We are dealing with the realities. In Scotland, 140 sites are earmarked. Some are at the planning stage and some have been developed. I ask members to cast their minds back to the UK Government's decision to experiment with anthrax on Gruinard island. Anthrax was kept under control, but Scotland was targeted for that experiment. I relate the wind farm situation to that, except that the virus of wind farms is out of control. The developers are being allowed to apply piecemeal where and when they like; what they are doing is almost unrestricted.
Is your objection largely to the look of turbines? We have talked about sustainability. I could respond to your answer about wave power by saying, "Just a minute—with all new things, you sometimes have to spend a lot of money, as the oil industry did." What about the damage, if any, that windmills do? I have been to all the sites in Orkney and have spoken to all the people roundabout, who do not seem to mind the turbines and do not say that they are suffering, although they are quite near. Do you object to the look of the turbines or the fact that they are unsustainable? Will you narrow your argument?
The turbines are a futile gesture. They do little or nothing to alter the greenhouse gas situation, so that argument can be pushed to one side—it is not an issue. Opinions about the look of the turbines are personal. I cannot stand the damn things, but that is not the position that I represent. One of Mr Wilson's favourite comments is that everybody in the anti-wind farm lobby is a NIMBY, which stands for "not in my back yard". Our back yard is Scotland, which is why we are all here. We are not just representing views on individual applications. We are here because we are concerned about the proliferation—that was difficult to say; I will put my teeth back in—of windmills.I will describe my concern about Moray. Moray is in the economic doldrums. Fishing is in its death-throes and farming is in the doldrums. There is not much going for Moray other than its historical tourism and its whisky. The Moray economy is so sensitive that we cannot jeopardise it by allowing tourism to be affected. I think that the turnover of tourism in Scotland is £4 billion. If 25 per cent of tourists do not show up, we will lose £1 billion of our income.
I am not aware of the situation in Moray but I have read a lot about the recent suggestions on the development of wind farms in the Isle of Skye. It has been suggested today that, before any such schemes go ahead, an environmental assessment should be conducted. I am sure that no one would argue strongly against that suggestion. However, the environmental impact assessment of any wind farm development, such as the one that has been mentioned in Skye, would be done on behalf of the planning department of the local authority.
Site-specific environmental impact assessments are an important part of the planning procedure. However, there is a problem: NPPG 5 and planning advice note 45—PAN 45—put such an emphasis on the development of renewable energy that renewable energy projects are regarded as being green from the start. While the environmental effects of a coal power station or a nuclear power station would be scrutinised carefully—
They are not scrutinised closely enough. There has been tragedy after tragedy.
I agree, but my point is that the environmental impact of wind farms is not adequately scrutinised because they are perceived to be clean, green and sustainable. Blanket bog is one of the biggest carbon stores in the northern temperate zone, but, because each council deals with applications for wind farms separately, we have no way of knowing how much blanket bog in Scotland will be destroyed by wind farms. Golden eagles do not respect local authority boundaries. How many golden eagles will be killed by the programme? A site-specific environmental impact assessment will tell us that; it will also tell us how many hectares of blanket bog will be destroyed in a particular area. However, there is no mechanism for measuring blanket bog destroyed in Argyll alongside that destroyed in Moray or elsewhere across Scotland.
Surely what you say about the number of golden eagles that would be injured or killed is an assumption. Has any calculation been done to produce an accurate assessment?
We do not know about the first application for Skye because we have not seen the data for it, but the second application, which is for 14 turbines, predicts a damage to the local eagle population of between 1 and 20 per cent. Obviously, that figure is uncertain: the developer's estimate could mean one eagle every five years or one eagle a year. However, good evidence based on the experience of wind farms in the United States of America suggests that badly placed wind farms that are not subject to proper environmental scrutiny can be damaging to golden eagles.
I accept that you are here to speak to a petition about what is happening in Skye and that Mr Graham is concerned about what is happening on the Scottish mainland. However, very few representations have been made to me on the subject—I speak as a representative of Skye. I would have thought that I would have heard from the Scottish Crofters Union, individual crofters or others who might be affected by the wind farm development, but I have not. That is why I am reasonably satisfied that the planning department took account of all the representations that it received when it approved the wind farm development last Friday.
I ask members to stick to the general issue, rather than to refer to the specifics of a planning application.
I respect the opinion that has been voiced, but the petition calls for a strategic environmental assessment. Agenda 21, the Aarhus convention and the new European Commission directive all say that development cannot be called sustainable unless a strategic environmental assessment has been conducted. That is what we want—we do not want to argue over particular cases; the cases that we highlighted are just examples.
I said at the outset that there would be no objections to your proposal for an environmental assessment. I am not objecting to that; I do not think that any reasonable person would.
The question is whether the planning system is able to deal with the situation. That is the broader issue.
We would question the assertion that the planning system is adequate, but I would say that, even if the system worked perfectly, it would be no substitute for strategic assessment.
I thank members for their questions and the witnesses for their attendance and for presenting their case so articulately, for which we are grateful. It is now for members to consider what action they think it appropriate to take. We will keep the petitioners informed about any progress on or developments with their petitions. You are welcome to stay seated and listen to what members have to say. My colleagues get their turn now.We will start with PE559. Does the committee agree to write to the Scottish Executive to seek its views on the general issues raised in the petition? In particular, we could request further details of the work that is being carried out on strategic environmental assessments. We could ask the Executive to indicate whether Scotland's renewable energy programme is likely to be subject to a strategic environmental assessment and, if so, when that would be likely to happen. We could also the Executive to indicate when the outcomes of its recent consultation on the future of renewable energy are likely to be available. Do members also agree to write to the Scottish Renewables Forum, which represents the renewable energy industry in Scotland, to seek its comments on the issues raised in the petition? We could also pass a copy of the petition to the clerk to the Transport and the Environment Committee, for information only at this stage. I direct members' attention to the recommendations on PE564. Do members agree that the general focus of the petition appears to be the development of a national strategy for wind farm developments and of guidance for planning applications for such developments? Does the committee agree that we should write to the Executive, seeking its views on the issues raised in the petition? We could ask the Executive to indicate whether it has any plans to develop a national strategy and guidance for wind farm developments. We could also ask the Executive to comment on the petitioners' claims. They claim that electricity from wind farms costs double that from conventional sources; that subsidies for power generators for wind farm development are to be recovered from the consumer in the form of a levy; and that developers are submitting as many planning applications as possible prior to the adoption of the new electricity trading arrangement in Scotland, which is designed to curtail malpractice by electricity generators. They also claim that local government planning departments are not equipped to cope with what they argue is "the ‘industrialisation' of the Scottish Countryside" but that planning departments are urged by the Executive to approve such applications; that wind farm developments pose a real threat to house prices and tourism and fail to generate long-term jobs or revenue for Scotland; and that the sustainability of wind power is uncertain, given the fact that the life expectancy of turbines is only 15 to 20 years. The committee may wish to request comments from the Scottish Renewables Forum on the issues raised in the petition and to pass a copy of the petition to the clerk to the Transport and the Environment Committee, for information only.
You mentioned the petitioners' claim that electricity from wind farms costs double that from conventional sources. I was interested in that statistic. Could we seek clarification whether they include nuclear energy as a conventional source?
We could certainly add your question to our letter.
If nuclear is conventional, the petitioners' claim is not true. I do not know whether they can come back on that point.
Is that the question that you want to put in the letter?
I have to know what is meant by conventional before I can say whether I agree.
That is a matter of interpretation. I am asking you whether you would like us to ask that question of the Executive.
The petitioners' claim is not true if they are applying the term conventional to nuclear energy.
The cost of a nuclear unit is now down to something like 2.3p, compared with something like 5p to 6p for a wind farm generated unit.
I do not want to argue about the issue. I just want to know whether that is the question that Dr Ewing wants us to ask.
As long as my point is made: I do not agree that nuclear energy is a conventional source.I am worried by the allegation—which might be true—that developers are submitting as many planning applications as possible. That allegation should be included in the letter. It is pretty insulting to say that local government planning departments are not equipped to cope. After all, we elect them, so we get the councillors that we deserve. If we do not like councillors—
Those are points for the petitioners to make. It is not really—
We need to agree whether to make these points. I am saying that I agree with some points but not others. That is perfectly permissible. I agree with the point about the failure to generate long-term jobs or revenue. However, I do not agree that wind farm developments pose a real threat to house prices. I base that on evidence from Orkney.
I accept that those are your views. However, the petitioners have given us their views, for which they are asking us to be a conduit to the Executive. Are you content that we ask those questions?
Yes, but I would like my comments to be added, as I am a member of the committee.
We can also send a copy of the Official Report.
I do not necessarily accept that the points made in the petition are true.
We will send a copy of the Official Report, which means that your views will be made clear.
I want to pick up one of the petitioners' concerns, which is that Jack McConnell has set a target of 18 per cent renewable energy over the next 10 years—I think he said that renewable energy should reach 40 per cent over the next 20 years. I would like to know how the pressure of those targets, applied as national targets, is reflected when councils determine the outcome of applications for wind farms. At the moment, wind farms are the only practical form of renewable generation other than nuclear, which is also renewable. The volume output means that it will not be possible to meet the targets that Jack McConnell has set. It would be worth while to take this opportunity to question him about that.
We will take all those points on board and we will ensure that a copy of the Official Report goes to the Scottish Executive to make clear members' differing points of view. I can see that this is a controversial matter.
Do you, and the petitioners, agree that we should replace "conventional" with the term "present sources", because we cannot participate in enshrining nuclear energy as a conventional source of energy?
Are the petitioners happy to take that point on board? I do not have a problem with it.
Certainly. We could change the phrase to "existing sources".
Are you happy with that?
That is fine.
Good—consensus reigns.Do members agree with the recommendations on both petitions?Members indicated agreement.
Do members also agree to link PE564 to PE559 and PE493, which are related?Members indicated agreement.
I thank the petitioners for their attendance this morning. We will keep you informed about the progress of your petitions and the outcomes. The clerk to the committee will contact you.
In this meeting
Everything on 3 Dec 2002 →- Scottish Parliament Public Petitions Committee Tuesday 3 December 2002 (Morning) Petitions · 2
- New Petitions Petitions · 74
- New Petitions Petitions · 65
- New Petitions Petitions · 70
- New Petitions Petitions · 66
- New Petitions Petitions · 23
- Current Petitions Petitions · 18
- Current Petitions Petitions · 19
- Current Petitions Petitions · 17
- Current Petitions Petitions · 3
- Current Petitions Petitions · 7
- Current Petitions Petitions · 1
- Inadmissible Petitions Petitions · 3
- Inadmissible Petitions Petitions · 1
- Convener's Report Procedure · 5
The type of each item (debate, statement, questions, members’ business and so on) and the times shown are worked out by this site from headings, the chair’s opening words and the Official Report’s running timestamps. They are not the Parliament’s own classification. Text: the Scottish Parliament Official Report.