Parliament Workbench
Data: Official Report to 12 Nov 2026

Official Report · Committee

New Petitions

Elderly People (Residential and Respite Care) (PE551)

Tuesday 8 October 2002 Public Petitions Committee Petitions 58 contributions · 8 speakers

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The record

58 contributions
John McAllion Lab The Convener · Dundee East
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We move on to the third petition, which is from Mrs Pat Brown, on the care of the elderly. Mrs Brown, Ms Nan MacFarlane and Ms Isobel Thomson should be with us. I ask them to come forward and take their seats.The petition calls on the Scottish Parliament to investigate whether local authorities are interpreting the legislation and policy documents regarding care of the elderly in an appropriate manner, as opposed to using recent legislation as a means by which to reduce their financial and social obligations.We will follow normal procedure: the witnesses have three minutes to make a statement, then the meeting will be open to questions.

Pat Brown Troon Community Council
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I speak on behalf of the residents of St Meddans Court in Troon and their families. South Ayrshire Council decided to dispense with residential and respite care facilities for the elderly in Troon and the residents and their families were told about the decision only in March this year. It is our understanding that the council's decision was based principally on its interpretation of the Regulation of Care (Scotland) Act 2001 and the Scottish Commission for the Regulation of Care's requirements together with a best value review and Scottish Office circular SWSG 2/97, a directive that recommends that councils move to independent sector provision to provide care for the elderly as a means to achieve cost benefits.St Meddans Court is currently home to 12 frail elderly people. The residents expected that it would be their home for the remainder of their lives. The demolition of St Meddans Court and the transfer of land to Hanover (Scotland) Housing Association will essentially deprive them of their homes. We believe that that action by the council is contrary to article 8 of the European convention on human rights. The demolition will also isolate the adjoining 24 sheltered housing accommodations and will, in effect, remove the present laundering and meal services and informal 24-hour supervision. Compensation for that will be in the form of home-care packages that will in no way attain the present level of services.South Ayrshire Council has used current legislation to discontinue services and facilities for the elderly by relinquishing its responsibilities to provide residential and respite care.Troon Community Council believes that the Regulation of Care (Scotland) Act 2001 is seriously flawed if South Ayrshire Council, from its analysis of the legislation, can take action to close established residential care homes. We are here today to request that the committee investigate whether that act and associated policy documents are flawed and open to misinterpretation and whether they are being used as a means to reduce financial and social obligations. We ask that the committee consider the possibility that South Ayrshire Council has breached the ECHR.

John McAllion Lab The Convener · Dundee East
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Before I open up the meeting to questions from committee members, I will let Adam Ingram say a few words because he is here in support of the petition.

Adam Ingram SNP South of Scotland
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I have visited St Meddans Court and I can confirm that it has a high reputation in the area. The facility is relatively new, being about 25 years old, so I suggest that it is very much up to scratch in terms of what it provides for the residents. I accept that it might not be up to the full standards that were laid down by the Regulation of Care (Scotland) Act 2001, but that could be rectified fairly easily. The council says that it would cost a lot to do that job and blames the Scottish Parliament for introducing the Regulation of Care (Scotland) Act 2001. The council is using the act as an excuse for shutting down the home.If the issue is considered in the context of the council's wider policy, it appears that the council is seeking to get out of providing any services that can be provided by others. The council wishes to concentrate on its core services and does not see the provision of care to elderly citizens as a core service. If members will cast their minds back to the Ayr by-election, they will recall the incident of the closure of the Carrick Street halls. The closure of St Meddans Court is a continuation of that policy.The question for the committee is whether the Regulation of Care (Scotland) Act 2001 was introduced to close the residential homes that are run by councils throughout the country. I am quite sure that members of the Health and Community Care Committee, for example, did not foresee that. I hope that we can make representations to ensure that the situation is corrected. We must be sure that Regulation of Care (Scotland) Act 2001 does not impose insuperable burdens on local authority residential care homes.

John McAllion Lab The Convener · Dundee East
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As a member of the Health and Community Care Committee, I can say that that was certainly not the intention when the act was passed. Do members have any questions?

Phil Gallie Con South of Scotland
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I welcome the petition, as it allows us to consider the issue, but does the petitioner accept that the administration of South Ayrshire Council has the right to close the St Meddans Court facility if it so desires because of costs, provided that it can ensure provision of social services to the residents?

Pat Brown Troon Community Council
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No, I do not agree entirely that the council has such a right. The council has a right to close the facility only if it has good reason for doing so, which it does not. The council has interpreted the act and the other documents that I mentioned in a certain way. The council's decision is based on costs. To date, it has suggested no alternatives for the elderly residents and there has been no communication with the residents or with their families. The only consultation—the council called it consultation; we do not—was the council having one meeting with the residents and families. There has been no communication since then. I do not accept that South Ayrshire Council's interpretation of any of the legislation, or the actions that it has taken as a result of that, are correct.

Phil Gallie Con South of Scotland
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I was trying to separate the matter into two divisions. The cost allocation, as far as I can see, would be the responsibility of South Ayrshire Council and an issue that the democratic process sorts out in the long term. I agree with Adam Ingram that the quality of the buildings and the care levels that are provided at St Meddans Court over a number of years have been excellent—they are in the right place and are the right kind of accommodation. It is a tragedy that those facilities will be closed.South Ayrshire Council has given assurance after assurance to politicians of all hues that the reason for the closure relates to the regulation aspect. The Parliament, however well intentioned, might have come up with the Regulation of Care (Scotland) Act 2001, but what lies beneath the bills that we put through the Parliament is always important, and the best of intentions frequently turn sour. Are the regulations the basis of the problem that we face at St Meddans Court?

Pat Brown Troon Community Council
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Yes they are, because the regulations are open to misinterpretation. The national standards that have been produced as a result of the Regulation of Care (Scotland) Act 2001 are partly to blame. Initially, the regulations were extremely concise on what they required, but it has since been realised that many of those requirements are not needed and are not practical. South Ayrshire Council's interpretation should apply to new build; the national standards that were issued initially do not apply to existing homes, particularly good and well-structured existing homes. I blame the Regulation of Care (Scotland) Act 2001 because it is open to interpretation.

Phil Gallie Con South of Scotland
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There is something very positive in what you have just said about the national standards. Before I pick up on that point, are you aware of any other homes in the area, or in any other part of Scotland, that are closing as a consequence of the new regulations?

Pat Brown Troon Community Council
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I could not be specific about other parts of Scotland, but I know that homes are closing. That seems to be the trend in England too, although that has nothing to do with the Scottish act. South Ayrshire Council has already closed a home in Ayr and there are proposals to close a home in Girvan—it is not a home for the elderly, but the principle is the same. The council proposes changing that home and altering it quite drastically.

Phil Gallie Con South of Scotland
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You highlighted your concerns about elements of the Regulation of Care (Scotland) Act 2001, which the committee could refer to the Executive for further comment. You also referred to the national standards. It seems to me that those national standards could be changed relatively easily if, from your perspective, the flawed standards could be identified. Could you give us one or two examples of such flaws?

Pat Brown Troon Community Council
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One of the standards is very specific; it covers the size of rooms and stipulates that all people must have single rooms with full en-suite facilities. At first it was thought that that standard was to apply to all physical accommodation and that is the way in which South Ayrshire Council has interpreted the standard. However, any member of the Care Commission will tell you that that standard is not required except in new builds, which is understandable. If a home is reasonable and in good condition, and partly meets the standards to the satisfaction of the Care Commission, that is quite acceptable. Although the standards have been laid down, they are open to question.

Dr Winnie Ewing SNP Highlands and Islands
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You have referred to a meeting in April. Does the local authority regard itself as having a duty to consult? Did it hold that meeting because of such a duty?

Pat Brown Troon Community Council
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The first meeting that we had was at the council's request. After that, we instigated a public meeting. I do not think that the council feels that it has a duty, because its consultation process—if it could be called that—was practically non-existent.

Dr Winnie Ewing SNP Highlands and Islands
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Such a process does not seem to have taken place.

Pat Brown Troon Community Council
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It did not.

Dr Winnie Ewing SNP Highlands and Islands
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Assurances were given that residents would be moved to other accommodation, but silence has fallen since April. Is that the position?

Pat Brown Troon Community Council
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Exactly.

Dr Winnie Ewing SNP Highlands and Islands
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During your opening statement, I was saying goodbye to some of my local postmasters, and I came back just when you mentioned human rights. What did you say about human rights?

Pat Brown Troon Community Council
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I would like the committee to consider the fact that South Ayrshire Council might have breached the Human Rights Act 1998 on the expectation of a home for life and on consultation.

Helen Eadie Lab Dunfermline East
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Will you say a little more about the Scottish Commission for the Regulation of Care? Our briefing paper says that, under the Regulation of Care (Scotland) Act 2001, the commission automatically registers all residential homes for the elderly pending a first inspection, when facilities will be assessed. The briefing paper says that, thereafter, the commission would grant an application for deregistration only if it were satisfied of the reasons and that residents had appropriate alternative accommodation. Have you had discussions with the commission? How does that relate to liaison between the council and the commission?

Pat Brown Troon Community Council
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I received that information from a member of the commission. South Ayrshire Council has said publicly that if it does not demolish St Meddan's Court and leaves the building as it is, the care commission will not register St Meddan's Court and will close it down. That is almost a quotation. The council omitted to tell us that St Meddan's Court is automatically registered, as many homes have been since the 2001 act was passed. It would be impossible for homes to stop functioning because of that act until the commission had inspected and registered them. Recognised homes are automatically registered and will be inspected for re-registering.I learned from the care commission that if a registered home wishes to discontinue being a home, it must apply to the commission. For example, South Ayrshire Council would have to apply to the care commission to deregister St Meddan's Court, and three months' notice must be given of that. Before granting deregistration, the commission requires to know all sorts of information, not the least of which is what will happen to the residents, where they will go and whether the situation is satisfactory.

Helen Eadie Lab Dunfermline East
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That was my point. What has the commission said? Did the council write to the commission? Did the council make an application? What was the commission's response to the council?

Pat Brown Troon Community Council
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The last time that I spoke to someone in the commission was a few weeks ago, at which time it had no information about South Ayrshire Council applying for deregistration. The commission knew nothing of the circumstances, other than what I had told it.

Phil Gallie Con South of Scotland
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Did you expect South Ayrshire Council officials to discuss the issues with the commission?

Pat Brown Troon Community Council
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They should have, but to my knowledge, they have not.

Phil Gallie Con South of Scotland
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Have South Ayrshire Council officials at the highest levels assured you that the only reason for the closure is the 2001 act and not cost implications?

Pat Brown Troon Community Council
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Yes, that is exactly what they have said.

John McAllion Lab The Convener · Dundee East
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Are there any points that you want to make about anything that has not been covered?

Pat Brown Troon Community Council
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Any decision that is made, particularly a very important decision such as this, has an end result. The end result is that there are frail elderly people who are in a distressed state. That is definitely affecting their health.If the committee will bear with us, Mrs Thomson would like to speak. Mrs Thomson's mother was a resident in St Meddan's Court and she would like to tell the committee about her mother.

Isobel Thomson
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As Pat Brown has said, my mother was a resident at St Meddan's Court. She has lived there for approximately 10 years. She was a bright individual. She was not sitting waiting to die. She was reading, watching the television, and reading her newspapers. She was interested in politics and everything else.On 22 March, when we were told about what was going to happen, my mother collapsed in front of me. It is not just my mother who is affected. We are trying to save the place for all the old ladies and gentlemen. There is a great need for St Meddan's Court. We can fill it time and again. I agree that our local authority is just trying to opt out of caring for the elderly.

Nan McFarlane Troon Community Council
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I want to talk about the buildings. If you can picture it, St Meddan's Court is the womb and the sheltered housing is the cord to the womb. The sheltered housing has 24 houses, among whose residents there are two amputees.We have had no indication that the land and the buildings have been sold. It is very expensive and valuable land in the centre of town. We have been told that the buildings will be transferred to Hanover Housing Association, which is going to build 16 flats, of which six will be two-apartment. We are led to believe that that is going to be a stand-alone Hanover Housing Association complex with facilities for the people who will live in it.The "cord" houses people who are not quite at the stage of requiring residential care, but who cannot live independently in society. They have their meals in the main part. They also have laundry facilities. The main part also provides 500 meals a week and the laundry facilities for other sheltered housing in Troon.The council has told us that the sheltered housing at the rear of the building will be refurbished and there will be a package of care tailored to the residents' needs. One of the amputees who lives there is a double amputee. She will have to go to bed at half-past 7 because that is when her "package of care" will come in to put her to bed as her "package of care" cannot come in any later. Once she is in bed, she cannot get back out. She will have to stay there until her "package of care" comes back at half-past 8 in the morning.At the moment, we are not aware of any 24-hour alarm system, although we assume that an alarm system will be put into the sheltered housing. That system will have to be activated at Ayr. As I understand it, from 10 o'clock at night the alarm system will be activated in Glasgow, which is 34 miles away. The problem is not just St Meddan's Court; there is more to it.The new Hanover Housing Association plan has a drying area for the housing complex. That will have a 6ft fence that blocks off the view of half the people who live at the back of the complex. There is no path for those people to get straight through to the shops. They—including the amputees—will have to take a circular detour. That matter has not been addressed so far and we are concerned that the package of care, which is given by a private service provider, is not adequate for the people in the sheltered housing. The issue goes further than St Meddan's Court.

John McAllion Lab The Convener · Dundee East
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Could I just clarify something? You keep saying that the council has told you. Has the council made a formal proposal to close the home?

Nan McFarlane Troon Community Council
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Yes, publicly. I am the secretary of Troon Community Council. We called a public meeting, which was organised within three days of hearing about the closure and not getting answers from the council. More than 250 people attended the meeting, all of whom were opposed to the closure. The council's director of social work, housing and health and its social justice committee convener, Rita Miller, attended the meeting. All that we got out of them was more rhetoric about the Regulation of Care (Scotland) Act 2001. They said that if St Meddan's Court were not upgraded, the commission would shut it down.

John McAllion Lab The Convener · Dundee East
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Has the council indicated the time scale for the closure?

Pat Brown Troon Community Council
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The council has not indicated that directly to us, but, from other sources, we understand that it is to be March 2003. The council is moving quickly on the closure. St Meddan's Court has the capacity to take 16 residents, but at present it has only 12 residents. We have been told that it needs the other beds to take people who have been decanted from the sheltered housing complex about which Mrs McFarlane spoke. The council has started to run down the home. I understand that it is taking respite patients again for short periods of time after a period of not taking them at all, but that is supposed to stop again shortly.

John McAllion Lab The Convener · Dundee East
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Has the council undertaken a formal consultation process on the closure?

Pat Brown Troon Community Council
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No.

John McAllion Lab The Convener · Dundee East
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Thank you for your evidence this morning. You are free to sit and listen to the discussion about how the committee is to handle petition PE551.As members are aware, the committee is unable to become involved in the executive decision of an elected body, such as South Ayrshire Council's decision to close St Meddan's Court in Troon. The suggested action is for the committee to write to the Scottish Executive and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities seeking their formal comments on the issues that are raised in the petition. I suggest that we also write to South Ayrshire Council.We should request the details of their position on local authority provision of residential and respite care homes for elderly people and their comments about the adequacy of current local authority provision, including an indication of whether supply meets demand. We should ask whether there has been a decrease in local authority provision in recent years and request an indication of whether local authorities are experiencing genuine difficulties in finding the resources to fund the upgrading of existing homes in order to meet the standards that are set out in the Regulation of Care (Scotland) Act 2001. Finally, we should ask for their comments on the petitioners' claims that councils may be interpreting the legislation and policy documents regarding care of the elderly in an inappropriate manner, using the recent legislation as a means to reduce their financial and social obligations.

Dr Winnie Ewing SNP Highlands and Islands
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I would like the last point enlarged to include the point that was made about the interpretation of standards as they affect existing and new homes. I suggest that we also ask whether local authorities have a duty to consult on the closure of such residential homes. Does the local authority have a duty to provide information to the residents of such homes? Do local authorities accept that such consultation and information is required under human rights legislation?

John McAllion Lab The Convener · Dundee East
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The clerks have taken down all those points. We can add them to our letters to the Scottish Executive, COSLA and South Ayrshire Council.

Helen Eadie Lab Dunfermline East
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I was also going to make a point about consultation, as that subject comes up time and again at the committee. I agree that we should ask South Ayrshire Council for its response on the matter of consultation.

Dr Winnie Ewing SNP Highlands and Islands
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I made a general point on the closure of a home by any local authority.

John McAllion Lab The Convener · Dundee East
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Perhaps we should write to the Scottish Commission for the Regulation of Care, asking for its comments on the situation. We should ask the commission about local authorities citing national standards as an excuse to close down residential homes.

Dr Winnie Ewing SNP Highlands and Islands
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And about the question of registration and remit.

Phil Gallie Con South of Scotland
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I am pleased that the convener added South Ayrshire Council to the list of those to whom we are to write. Given the comments that have been made, we need to make contact with the council. I also suggest that we ask the council and the commission what contact the two bodies have had on the issue, given the importance that the council seems to have placed on the 2001 act. We should also ask the council whether it took cost considerations into account. The council has denied that cost implications were a factor in the closure of the home. It would be a serious matter if such implications were found to be involved.

John McAllion Lab The Convener · Dundee East
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We can ask those questions of the council and the commission.

Phil Gallie Con South of Scotland
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I have another point. I am concerned about national standards for the regulation of care.

Phil Gallie Con South of Scotland
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Yes, but there must be an element of priority. My understanding is that modifying the Regulation of Care (Scotland) Act 2001 would require a parliamentary procedure, but that changing the standards might not. The matter is urgent and we should look to change the standards, which have been imposed or laid down by the Executive with the best intentions.

John McAllion Lab The Convener · Dundee East
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As a member of the committee that dealt with the Regulation of Care (Scotland) Bill, I must point out that there was widespread consultation on the national standards. Local authorities, elderly people's organisations and social work bodies were involved in drawing up the national standards. There is no question that the Executive imposed the national standards. Organisations from across the spectrum of care for the elderly agreed to the standards.

Phil Gallie Con South of Scotland
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Are the national standards built into the act or do they stand apart from it?

John McAllion Lab The Convener · Dundee East
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They are matters for guidance, but they were issued after Executive consultation with the appropriate bodies. From this morning's discussion, it is clear that people do not understand the implications of the national standards. The system is new and there is a lot of misinformation about it. The position must be clarified. The care commission and the Executive will make the situation clear in their responses to us. We can then pass on that information to the people in South Ayrshire.

Dr Winnie Ewing SNP Highlands and Islands
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Will the clarification cover the issue of existing homes and new homes?

John McAllion Lab The Convener · Dundee East
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Yes. We will ask about that. I cannot remember the detail, but I am sure that there is a difference between new build and existing homes. The standards must be met within a time scale; they do not have to be met instantly. Do members agree to the suggestions that I have made?Members indicated agreement.

John McAllion Lab The Convener · Dundee East
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I thank the petitioners for their evidence. We will keep them informed of progress on the petition.

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