The next petition is PE496, from Mr George McAulay, on the Scottish Executive's recent domestic abuse advertising strategy. Mr McAulay, the usual rules will apply.
Official Report · Committee
New Petitions
Domestic Abuse (Advertising Strategy) (PE496)
Speakers
Choose an MSP to read only their contributions- George McAulay UK Men’s Movement 36
- John McAllion Lab 24
- Dr Winnie Ewing SNP 15
- Phil Gallie Con 5
- Dorothy-Grace Elder Ind 3
- John Farquhar Munro LD 1
The record
84 contributions
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
Yes—break when you say break, and no hitting in the clinches.
You have three minutes to address the committee, then the meeting will be opened to questions.
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
Before I start, a number of correspondents have asked what action the Executive is taking on our previous petitions on parental alienation, which committee members will remember.
We are still waiting for responses from the Scottish Executive. We will bring them together when we receive them and deal with them as a package.
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
So they are still in abeyance.
Yes. We are waiting for the Scottish Executive to respond, but you will be told as soon as we get a response.
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
I thought that I was going to have the most contentious petition today, but after hearing the Queen being accused of reset, I see that I do not. Unfortunately, and with considerable regret, I have to accuse the Executive and, I am afraid, the Parliament of profound hypocrisy and double standards, and of having acted illegally under the Sex Discrimination Act 1975, with respect to the provisions that they made for domestic abuse advertising campaigns, and also because of the manner in which they address the entire subject of domestic abuse.I sent every member of the committee an e-mail about Mo Mowlam MP, who made a public statement about serious domestic violence that she had committed. No one, bar Phil Gallie, has bothered to respond to that. I said to the late Donald Dewar that if a male politician had committed that domestic violence, there would have been calls for his blood and immediate resignation. That indicates profound double standards and hypocrisy in a Parliament and an Executive that are supposed to be committed to inclusion and equality.Today, I received "Preventing Violence Against Women: Action across the Scottish Executive". The definition of violence includes violence in the street. Young men are infinitely more liable to be victims of street violence than are young women. It is unbelievable that only one section of society should be targeted for protection from violence.The advertising that the petition refers to uses the usual technique of feminist advocacy, which is to commission research with an all-embracing definition of what they want to focus on, so that practically everyone must respond that they have been a victim at some point, according to an ever-wider definition of domestic abuse. However, the advertising completely ignored the 50 per cent of men who replied that they had been victims of domestic violence. If an ethnic minority group were to suffer violence at half the rates of the predominant ethnic group in this country, that would be rightly seen and condemned as racism, as not being inclusive and as being discriminatory. If the Parliament is committed to inclusion and equality, it will take action along the lines that we suggest.
I open the meeting to questions.
You talked about violence in the street, but that is irrelevant, because we are talking about domestic abuse. What happens to young men on the streets is totally irrelevant, is it not?
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
No. I was discussing the hypocrisy of the Executive.
I am sorry, but it is irrelevant to this petition. Am I right?
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
No. The petition asks for the situation to be monitored and for all future advertising campaigns—
You talk about domestic abuse in the petition, so there is no point bringing in what happens out on the street. Your particular complaint is about an advert that stated:"1 in 5 women live with the constant threat"of domestic violence. You complain about the whole phrase—not just the number, but the phrase "constant threat". You say that it has been accepted that that is false, and that the phrase has been changed to"As many as 1 in 5".Is that your main complaint?
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
No, that is not my main complaint. If you read the petition, you will see that I would like"all future advertising campaigns to be screened to ensure honesty, integrity, sexual equality and lack of malice."As you can see from the rest of the petition, I want the Executive to"honour its professed commitment to equality and inclusion".Those things are of almost equal importance.
The Executive would claim that it already screens in the way that you suggest.
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
It is blatantly obvious that it does not. The advertisement has been condemned. I have with me a reply from Audit Scotland in which the Executive accepts the fact that its advertisement was untrue.
We do not have a copy of that letter. We might do well to get a copy of it.
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
It does not have a reference number, but it is dated 2 May 2002.
I understand that the Executive has made a public admission that it got it wrong.
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
Would you like to see the letter, Mrs Ewing?
I would rather that it went through the clerk.
We can distribute copies at the end of the meeting.
I worked in a poor legal practice that I owned for more than 20 years and regularly met people who were subjected to domestic abuse. In all those years, I was never approached by a man telling me that he had been assaulted by a woman. I was also a criminal practitioner in the courts for the same amount of time, and I never handled a case—
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
Does that mean that you disbelieve the "2000 Scottish Crime Survey"?
I am speaking. When I have finished, you can ask me a question about what I have said.When I was a member of Parliament, I also served on the House of Commons Select Committee on Violence in Marriage—that was the proper name of the committee, although it was unfairly known as the battered wives select committee. Over two years, we appealed for male victims of domestic abuse to come forward. We were willing to hold evidence sessions in private, out of concern for their feelings. In those two years, only one male came forward. To be fair, his was a sad case. He was a very small man and he seemed to have suffered gravely.From my experience, I have formed the opinion that domestic abuse is normally carried out by the male on the female. I have not formed that opinion out of emotion or because of prejudice; I have formed it following 25 years of practice in the courts and membership of a select committee that investigated the subject. I do not want inaccuracy; therefore I am prepared to support you all the way concerning inaccuracy. I take your point about the use of the word "constant". However, I ridicule the view that domestic abuse happens as much to males as to females.
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
I have not expressed that view. I am saying that the research is incomplete and is tainted. You say that you have met only one victim of domestic abuse.
I did not say that. I said that only one man came before the select committee.
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
You met a 6ft 4in victim of domestic abuse at the previous committee meeting, which I attended. Physical size has very little to do with it. Men tend to under-report. That has been well documented—
I accept that. So do women.
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
Of course they do. Is it in the rules that Mrs Ewing can interrupt me?
We are trying our best to deal with the petition. If people can be reasonable to each other we will get on with that better. We should lower the temperature, as members are genuinely trying to treat the petition with the seriousness that it deserves.
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
I am well aware of the feminist bias that exists in the Parliament and of the refusal to admit reality. I can provide study after study for Dr Ewing, some of which are mentioned in the petition, including the "2000 Scottish Crime Survey". If we bear in mind the fact that men under-report far more than women do, for obvious reasons, it is quite clear that there is a significant number of male victims.It is sheer hypocrisy to concentrate on only one section of society. That is what Nazi Germany did; it had special privileged groups and special groups that it deemed worthy of vilification. The feminists' target is men, and fathers in particular. The Executive's campaign was meant specifically to demonise men, and fathers in particular. There was no other reason for it. Dr Ewing is probably well aware of that. I would like to ask Dr Ewing how she can square the circle of ignoring half the respondents to the Scottish crime survey, who are male victims of domestic violence.
Give me a minute, Mr McAulay; I am convening the meeting. This is not a dispute between you and Dr Ewing. We are taking evidence on your petition, which is a matter for the Parliament. You have very strong views about individual members of the Parliament, but those are not up for discussion here. We are trying to get behind what the petition is calling for and to deal with it seriously.It is not the case that the Parliament does not take seriously the issue of men being abused; it does. During the debate on domestic abuse, the then minister made it clear that it was her intention to carry out research and that she was commissioning research.
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
Are we talking about Jackie Baillie?
We are talking about the minister's having said that research was being commissioned into the extent of abuse. I know men who have suffered abuse. I know that it is a real issue and most members of the Parliament acknowledge that and will treat it seriously. Raising the temperature and becoming personal does not help the matter. We are trying to deal with the issue cogently and coherently.
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
I apologise to Dr Ewing and I will attempt to focus.
The Executive has undertaken research into the extent of abuse against men. What is your response to that?
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
With respect, that research is flawed. It revisits the responses of the male respondents to the Scottish crime survey. I have been in contact with Dr Gadd of Keele University, who is charged with the research. It is merely a reprise of the responses of the male respondents to the crime survey; it does not reprise the responses of the female respondents. It revisits the responses of the males who said that they had been victims, but all that that will do is winnow some of them out. It is, from a scientific point of view, totally flawed to reprise only one half of a study.
If the study is into the extent of abuse against men—
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
No, it is not. It is a reprise of the "2000 Scottish Crime Survey". The other point that I make on all the studies is that there is a tendency for people to imagine that the studies are gospel, that people respond honestly and that the sample groups are representative of society. That is very often not the case.
The research has been commissioned, but it has not been published.
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
We exerted pressure, through the Audit Committee and the Equal Opportunities Committee—
The research cannot be condemned until it has been published and we know what it says. Let us wait to see what it says before we condemn it out of hand.
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
I have a pretty strong—
That is your view, but it is not a fact. We must wait for the research to be published.
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
I am saying that the research is flawed in its concept, because it approaches only one half of the matter.
We can certainly pursue that with the Executive.
I want to come back to the precise terms of the petition, which are about the reform of the domestic abuse advertising strategy. You lodged your petition because you were concerned about a false statement that was contained in a Scottish Executive advertising programme, which must have cost a considerable amount of money. Is that really what you want to get to the bottom of? Do you want to find out how the Executive made that mistake, how much it cost, and what it is doing to rectify it?
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
We want those matters to be examined. I am concerned about the social effects of the campaign. As you can see from the evidence, I made a complaint about a teacher in my son's school, who repeated and exaggerated the lie that was put out. That was done in all innocence. The teacher is a nice woman who has the interests of the children at heart; however, in front of a class of youngsters that included my son, she said that one in four women lives in constant fear of domestic abuse. What sort of terror does that induce in children?
That is at the back of your mind. It brings us to your feeling that the advertising campaign could have an adverse effect on society. You have covered two points of the petition. We must consider wider issues of domestic abuse and start to go into elements of discrimination. I think that you referred to a paper that you have just received. Perhaps that came after the petition was submitted.
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
I went to the mail box today and picked up a number of papers.
That paper came after the petition and we should not cloud the issues; we should concentrate on the first two points in the petition. All members of the committee should be concerned when misinformation is spread in the names of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Executive. Would you be satisfied if we took the petition forward on that basis?
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
I would be satisfied if the committee specifically addressed those points. My big concern is the effect that the campaign has on the minds of the young, particularly the girls in my son's class. How do they view the boys who will grow into men? Do they think that one in four of them will be an abuser?
You have made that point and to go back over it is pointless. That is all that I want to pick up on.
Might not Mr McAulay angle his complaint against the Executive more positively? He could ask the Executive to appeal at some stage for men who feel that they are being severely abused to come forward and to state that those men will have equal rights to be helped. That would increase the tiny number of help groups for men that exist.In a lifetime in journalism, the vast majority of abused people whom I have encountered are women. It is hard enough to get them to come forward. We know about the closed-door syndrome. I have encountered a small number of men who have come forward with what I thought were genuine cases. I assure Mr McAulay that the Parliament is strongly against abuse of any kind, whether it be abuse of children, women, men or any group. Would not it be better to appeal to the Executive more positively to help to bring abused men forward and to help to create groups to assist them?
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
I take that point, but we have tried the reasonable approach over the years. Unfortunately, only the Rottweiler approach tends to be successful—everything else is ignored. We have presented facts and statistics and we have presented witnesses. I emphasise that I have no interest in taking up any position with any groups that might be set up to assist men; I am not looking for a paid salary.
Of the very few such posts that exist, most are not paid and they are mainly in England.
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
I have no desire to follow the example of the women's refuge movement, which has a considerable body of well-paid advocates. However, I would like there to be facilities for men who are victims of abuse, such as those you suggest.
Those who work in women's groups are not well paid, I assure you.
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
In comparison to most of the work that I have done, I think that they are quite well paid.
That is outside the scope of the petition.
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
It would be helpful if the Executive were to encourage to come forward men who are victims of abuse. I mean serious abuse; something such as a shove should not be included. However, I have encountered a fair number of men who are victims. Abuse of men is mostly psychological abuse that develops into physical abuse. I am willing to provide the committee, for its information, with men who will talk to it about abuse.On men reporting assaults to the police, I would ask that the next Scottish crime survey include the question: "Were you afraid that you would be arrested if you reported this to the police?"
I wonder whether Mo Mowlam has been correctly quoted—politicians are often misquoted.
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
I have been misquoted myself.
I am worried about the fact that we have brought Mo Mowlam into this.
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
I wrote to Dr Mowlam and she did not reply. I spoke to Donald Dewar, who gave one of his harrumphs and moved on to other things. I can supply the committee with my correspondence with Donald Dewar and Mr Blair.
I do not like to bring Mo Mowlam into this. She did not have to reply to your letter.
There is a reference to the Daily Mail of Saturday 19 July 1998 that can be checked.
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
Mo Mowlam did not reply to my letter.
It is very common for politicians to be misquoted.
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
The Daily Mail contained a huge interview and Dr Mowlam did not see fit to make any complaints to the newspaper about it.
If we were to make complaints to newspapers every time we were misquoted, we would have no time to come to the Public Petitions Committee.
I can vouch for that. Thank you, Mr McAulay. You are free to listen to our discussion on how we will deal with the petition.It is suggested that we write to the Executive to seek its views on the issues that are raised in the petition, and that we specifically seek details of the Executive's handling of the recent advertising campaign. We should also ask the Executive to provide details of the nature and current status of the proposed research into the scale and nature of domestic abuse of males. We need to know what the Executive is doing and to hear its response to the allegation that the research is flawed.
That covers the terms of the petition.
We have to give the Executive a chance to respond.
Point 4 of the petition is the relevant bit.
We will keep you informed of the progress of the petition, Mr McAulay.
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
Perhaps you could inform all petitioners in a letter what the committee has agreed.
That is what we do.
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
I have had trouble with my mail box, so it might be that some letters have gone astray.
We will inform you of the outcome of your petition—we will not inform other people of the outcome of your petition.
George McAulay
UK Men’s Movement
link
Oh—right; that is what I meant. You should inform every petitioner what the committee has decided after the meeting.
The clerk tells me that that happens without fail in every case. Does the committee agree to deal with the petition as I suggested?Members indicated agreement.
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