Official Report · Committee
Child Abuse (Mandatory Reporting) (PE1551)
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Item 2 is consideration of new petitions. The committee will hear from petitioners on two of the petitions.
The first is PE1551, by Scott Pattinson, on the mandatory reporting of child abuse. Members have a note by the clerk, the Scottish Parliament information centre briefing and the petition.
I welcome Scott Pattinson to the meeting. I invite him to speak to his petition and to explain what it seeks for no more than five minutes. After that, we will move to questions.
I am here to protect and speak out for the most vulnerable and abused innocents who have had their humanity taken away from them by a sickness that has been in this country for far too long. There are Satanic people in society have been and are involved in the most sickening acts of sexual abuse, torture and even murder. That cannot go on. I am here to try to protect victims from institutions that have, in many incidents, utterly failed to protect and care for them in the way that they deserve.
Kerelaw school; Dolphin Square; Larchgrove boys home; Kincora boys home; Nazareth House; Rotherham, where more than 1,000 children were found to have been abused and the council resigned en masse; Fort Augustus abbey school near Loch Ness; and the Nottingham care homes that were involved in the operation daybreak police investigation—those are but a few of the places where abuse has taken place and has not been acted on.
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Thank you, Mr Pattinson.
“National Guidance for Child Protection in Scotland 2014” is wide-ranging and relevant child protection guidance. Why is it not sufficient?
In some of the incidents that I mentioned, there has been a history of people just not having been heard. The introduction of mandatory child abuse reporting will enable people in the care services to come forward and not be afraid. It will push people to make the right decisions about the real victims.
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The reporting of child abuse is mandatory in places such as Canada, Australia and the US but there have been no convictions for not reporting such abuse. Do you think that the system would work here in the United Kingdom, and that there would be convictions if child abuse was not reported?
With regard to America, the introduction of mandatory reporting of child abuse has been a success, especially as regards the percentage of people who have been helped.
I just feel that we must bring in mandatory reporting because the time is right especially given the current climate and what the media have reported. In Scotland, in particular, I feel that it would be a great success, because there are scandals surrounding places in Scotland. People in those situations could have been helped but were not.
Your petition talks about making it a criminal offence to fail to report child abuse. Could you give us some indication of which organisations would be encompassed by your proposal? The wording is quite broad. Would it cover everybody in society? If any one of us at the table or in the public gallery were to fail to report child abuse, could we be committing a criminal offence?
I meant the wording of my petition to relate to people who care for the most vulnerable and who have a duty to look after their interests and wellbeing. That is where my main concern lies.
The committee previously examined a petition on child sexual exploitation. You referred to a number of cases of child sexual exploitation that are currently live in the UK. We made recommendations to the Scottish Government on that issue, most of which it has taken on board. Is there anything other than what we have already recommended be done that you think should be done?
Given that we are working under legislation that was introduced only in 2014, would it not be advisable to provide an opportunity for that legislation to bed in, instead of moving to criminalise failure to report abuse? The named person route and the recommendations that have been made to teaching staff, medical staff and others in society mean that they should be more vigilant in relation to any abuse that might take place and more aware of that possibility, so would it not be advisable to let the legislation bed in rather than take further action?
Mandatory reporting could be introduced in conjunction with the existing legislation. A system can be used that will work with my proposals. With a structure and the right people in place, the whole thing could fit together like a jigsaw.
You mentioned the most vulnerable children. The media have identified that sometimes we do not fully understand when child sexual exploitation or child abuse has taken place. It has been reported that, in some cases, abuse has happened to children who would not, under normal circumstances, have been viewed as vulnerable. Do you want the proposal to encompass every child rather than just those who are identified as most vulnerable?
Primarily, mandatory reporting should focus on the children who are put in care homes or any institution. From my own personal experience, I know that predators out there look for opportunities to embed themselves in those services. That has been the case on many occasions.
Good morning. Obviously there is a heightened atmosphere surrounding these issues, and almost daily, further information comes into the public domain that undermines public confidence quite considerably.
Since you submitted your petition, the Prime Minister’s office has stated that new criminal sanctions for those who have failed to protect children from sexual exploitation will be at the heart of a new package of measures that is to be announced imminently. The terms of reference suggest that those measures appear to include the sorts of issues that you have identified.
Given that that is the case, would you hope for a fairly standard and common analysis and legal basis to be established across the United Kingdom as part of any further extension of measures in the area, rather than a piecemeal approach?
What is proposed at Westminster could be made available for the whole country, but perhaps it would undermine the Scottish Parliament’s position—I am not sure about that. We would probably have to act independently, because the situation in England is different from that in Scotland in that abuse seems to be reported more in England than it is up here. A different model would need to be implemented as a result of the difference between the two countries.
We would certainly have to legislate separately—there is no question about that—but should we perhaps legislate in similar terms so that there is a common understanding of what the offence might be?
Yes, definitely.
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I offer my apologies to Jim Eadie for not welcoming him to the committee as a substitute for Kenny MacAskill.
I thank you for your impressive presentation, Mr Pattinson—I like what you say. I would like the proposal to cover all children, not only those who are in one form of institution or another. I am glad and grateful that your petition allows us to consider the matter of how we protect children in Scotland—you are right that that is important.
I am happy to continue with the petition, convener. We could get advice from the Justice Committee with regard to whether it can throw any light on the issue and whether legislation will be introduced. It might be an idea to ensure that the issues that are raised in the petition are encompassed in any such process rather than being added on at a later stage. That would probably be more appropriate, and would probably satisfy Scott Pattinson with regard to what he is trying to achieve.
Good morning, Mr Pattinson, and thank you for your evidence this morning. I seek clarification on a point about the scope of your proposal. Do you propose for the legislation to apply to professionals working in child protection, or would it apply more widely to the general public?
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I feel that the proposal in the petition should be targeted at people who work in care homes and social services. It could also apply to those who work in hospitals, but not as much. Care homes and social services would be the main areas.
Have you considered the possibility of adverse unintended consequences arising from your proposal? I wonder whether diverting resources towards the investigation of complaints might, in an environment of limited resources, mean less of a focus on children who are at risk.
Most definitely. You raise a very good point. There is a real danger of people being taken away for the wrong reasons, as has happened in the past. Children have been taken away from their families through misreporting of abuse.
I do not think that I answered your question all that well.
You did fine. I just wanted to understand whether you had considered that possibility. If resources are being diverted towards the investigation of what would most likely be an increased number of complaints, there might be not as many resources focused on children who are at risk of abuse.
That is a good point and I take it on board.
Thank you. I have no further questions, convener.
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The committee will now decide what action it wishes to take on the petition. What are members’ views on the possible course of action suggested in the clerk’s note?
Given the prospect of legislation proceeding at Westminster, I think that it would be helpful to write to the Scottish Government to ask whether it plans to have any conversations with Westminster on establishing the terms of reference of that legislation and whether it is minded to move forward similarly in Scotland.
We should also establish whether the Scottish Government thinks that the scope of the proposed legislation is appropriate. I imagine that the Scottish Government would want to examine some of the issues that Jim Eadie and other members have raised in questioning, but in the first instance it would be helpful to know what that legislation is and whether the Scottish Government is familiar with the provisions. The issues that we are discussing have now attracted public interest and attention across the whole United Kingdom, and there is an argument for applying—albeit separately under our respective legislative and legal systems—a rigorous and universal common standard.
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Committee members will be aware that a national inquiry is being held on the subject, and I suggest that we write to the Scottish Government to ask what it is doing in this area.
To get a broader perspective, we should write to a number of other organisations to seek their views on the petition. I was thinking in particular of Barnardo’s Scotland, given that the charity has previously submitted a petition on child sexual exploitation. It might also be appropriate to write to COSLA. After all, the petitioner highlighted the issue of care homes, and at present COSLA plays a role in care provision.
I also suggest that we write to the Care Inspectorate, asking for its views on the petition and the proposal to institute a criminal offence. We need to be clear about the types of individuals and organisations that might be encompassed within such a change in legislation and find out their views on putting legislation in place for mandatory reporting.
It might also be helpful to seek the views of the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, the Child Protection and Safeguarding Consultancy, UNICEF and Shelter.
For completeness, and in view of the range of organisations that have been highlighted, I think that we should add Children 1st to that list.
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Is the committee happy with those recommendations?
Members indicated agreement.
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I thank Mr Pattinson for attending and giving evidence today, and I suspend the meeting to allow him to leave the table and the next petitioner to take their seat.
10:51 Meeting suspended.
10:52 On resuming—
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