The final two current petitions are PE1107 and PE1174, which we have grouped together. PE1107, by Robin Falconer, on behalf of Highland Youth Voice, calls on the Parliament to urge the Government to reduce public transport fares for all under-18-year-olds in full-time education and to make provision for young people with no income to either travel free or pay only half the adult fare. PE1174, by Juliana Wolkow, on behalf of Holy Cross high school fourth year pupils, calls on the Parliament to urge the Government to provide free public transport for all under-16s who have no income.I invite comments from members. If it is okay with the committee, I suggest that the young students who are present should be able to contribute to the discussion. I know that it is intimidating, because we are sitting here with big microphones and so on, but there will be roaming microphones, so I invite the high school students to share their experiences.
Official Report · Committee
Current Petitions
Free Public Transport (PE1107 and PE1174)
Speakers
Choose an MSP to read only their contributions- Frank McAveety Lab 15
- John Wilson SNP 3
- Nanette Milne Con 3
- Andrew Danet Alness Academy 2
- John Mackay Dornoch Academy 2
- John Farquhar Munro LD 2
- Rob Gibson SNP 1
- Emma Danet Alness Academy 1
- Ben Jones Alness Academy 1
- William MacDonald 1
- Marilyn Murray 1
- Bill Butler Lab 1
- Mary Scanlon Con 1
The record
37 contributionsI suggest that we suspend the meeting for a moment, because I know that other pupils will be joining us. It might be easier if we pose the question to a bigger audience. There might be issues about transport links during the day, never mind the public transport issues that the petitions raise.
Okay. We will take a brief break to allow the young students to arrive. We will then consider these two petitions, and the other two that were lodged by young people.
Meeting suspended.
On resuming—
We resume our consideration of PE1107 and PE1174, both of which are about approaches to transport for young people, and one of which specifically mentions the cost of transport in the Highlands.Do members have any comments? I reiterate that I also invite comments from any of the young, or not-so-young, students in the audience who have views on the petitions.
Do any of the students want to tell us what benefits free or reduced-fare transport for under-18s would bring them? Would such a thing benefit people up here? Is anyone willing to take up the challenge?
Can I do my old teaching practice? Even if pupils did not put up their hands, I would make eye contact and some poor soul would be asked the question. Would any of the students like to be more active and more able to move about? What practical inhibitions face youngsters in terms of transport, particularly here in the Highlands? Are any of the young students brave enough to have a go? I cannae believe that youngsters here are too shy. Any comments?Andrew, since I know you—Laughter. Thanks very much—it is an old tactic. As a young man in the area, what are some of the problems that you and your pals face?
Time is definitely a problem. We have to wait half an hour for a bus to get somewhere, whereas in Edinburgh buses go every five or 10 minutes. That is quite annoying. The prices are also a problem.
Say you decide to go for what you tell your mother is a quiet night out with your friends. What do you have to put into that equation cost-wise? What would it cost you to be able to go somewhere?
Now that we are over 16, we have to pay adult prices, so we are looking at a fare of £6 return to go to Inverness. On top of that are the costs of getting something to eat and buying t-shirts and things, so the costs can add up.
Okay. We saw a venue—was it the Ironworks? Interruption. Yes, it was—that was me trying to understand youth culture. So cost is an issue. Are there any comments from other young students about the transport problems that they have had? Andrew was brave enough to break the ice, so surely someone else will comment. Do any of the youngsters from Dornoch want to speak? I was talking to them earlier. I ask the clerk to take the microphone to the young gentleman who was nice enough to talk to me earlier. He is in sixth year, so he feels confident enough to speak, he says.
I basically agree with Andrew Danet. Laughter.
That is a good start. Well done. Keep going.
The prices can be really bad. From Dornoch it can be about £10 return, so if you want to buy something in Inverness, you can spend about £50 a day.
Okay. Can I get a quick show of hands? In terms of broad principle—it is probably an easy question to answer—do most of you think that it would be worth considering free transport for youngsters who are in full-time education? Would that be generally supported? As politicians, we will all have to face some pretty difficult budget decisions over the next period, so now might not be the best time for such petitions to be under discussion, given that there are other, broader spending challenges ahead.I invite members of the committee to comment. If any of the youngsters want to come in, just show that by indicating with your hand, okay?I think that we have a former teacher from the high school here.
Yes, indeed. I used to teach in Alness academy. The issue in the Highlands is in areas that are furthest from the main bus routes. Despite what we heard about the price, buses run from Dornoch to Inverness every hour or so. There is a far greater issue for people on the west coast and the north coast who want to go to Inverness, for example. A lot of schools and youngsters are much more disadvantaged than those in the inner Moray Firth area. It would be worth while for the committee to keep the matter under consideration, despite the costs, and see whether it can take it somewhat further.
I do not know whether everyone has one, but when you turn 16, you get a card that gives you a third off adult bus travel. However, those who go to after-school activities usually have to go to Inverness, which costs a lot—it is about £8 return, which is really expensive. We do not get a third off the return with the card; we have to buy a one-way ticket, so even with the card the price is quite high.Living in the Highlands is quite hard. There is not a lot to do in the area, so we have to travel into Inverness or somewhere else to attend after-school activities. It adds up to a lot of money.
I appreciate that. Are there inconsistencies in how much bus companies charge different age groups, such as young people? I do not have experience of that, obviously. Is it the case that you can get on one bus okay but, on another bus, you are charged full price?Fatally, the youngster who was nodding has my approval.
It is inconsistent. It depends which bus driver is on. If somebody looks over a certain age, they will charge the adult price. Sometimes I do not have identification on me so I cannot prove my age. It depends which bus driver is on and what mood he is in.
I do not think that you have a problem: you look about 13 to me.Do the students have any more comments on the issue? They will not often have a chance to make their thoughts clear to elected parliamentarians.Nanette Milne wishes to comment.
Do any of the young people feel that the financial consideration would be a disincentive if they wanted to go on and do a further education course?
I will add to that question. Do the young people feel that they are at a disadvantage when it comes to getting weekend work? Emma Danet indicated how much she spends when she goes into Inverness. What are the employment opportunities for young people who have to pay an £8 return fare to get into Inverness for a weekend job? Are they economically disadvantaged by not being able to take up employment opportunities that exist in the larger areas such as Inverness?
I will ask the hard question that I imagine anyone who has the purse strings, such as the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable Growth, would ask: given what we know of the budgets ahead for everyone—local councils, the Scottish Government and the United Kingdom Government—should free transport for teenagers be a priority?
They are nodding their heads.
As the youngest here, John, what do you think?
I look it, don't I? There is unanimous agreement: I saw most of the young students nodding their heads. We have two petitions; one is fairly relaxed about what happens—it calls for reduced fares for everybody under 18—and the other asks for free travel. I understand that anybody between 16 and 18 who is in full-time education already gets some sort of travel pass that gives them a reduction in their fares, but somebody in that age group who is not in full-time education does not get that benefit. They have the same difficulty in getting around as the rest of us do, so that is rather unfair. The second petition, which calls for free transport, merits consideration.
I invite comments from any young people in the audience. Perhaps taxpayers in the audience might have a comment on the petitions. They might be thinking, "Okay, it's free but what would that cost me? I already pay a lot for basic things such as council tax."
Part of growing up is learning to budget. If somebody gets pocket money and wants to go into Inverness at the weekend, it is surely beneficial for them to budget and think about how much they need for bus fares. A good reduction in the bus fare for under-18s or under-16s who are still in education might be beneficial.
I have a free bus pass, even though I do not look as though I should. Free bus passes have meant a tremendous increase in bus travel. For any sensible person considering ecological issues in Scotland, such as pollution, trying to get people out of their cars and on to the public transport system has been an immense success. I cannot understand any 16 to 18-year-old sitting here who would not go for free bus travel for themselves while they were young, to get them out of their parents' cars and on to the public transport system. It is a no-brainer for all sorts of reasons, but especially because of pollution. We need to get people out of private transport and on to public transport. We have to view the success of the over-60s scheme as empirical evidence; it is a fantastic scheme.
I had never thought of the possibility of being able to remove my 17-year-old son from the car regularly as an incentive for having such a scheme, but it would be tremendous because he just clutters things up.As elected members, we all know about the amount of mobility and activity that is generated by free bus travel for older citizens—the best euphemism for whom is "people who qualify". The scheme makes a real difference to how they mix and socialise. I am sure that there would be an equivalent impact on young people if a similar scheme was introduced for them. There is awareness that it may well be a socially good measure to implement.We now want to think about how we will deal with the two petitions that are before us. I invite committee members to comment on how they wish to progress the petitions.
Following on from what Marilyn Murray said, and given that the Scottish Government has just published a review of the Scotland-wide free bus travel scheme for older people, it might be an idea to ask the Scottish Government to consider the two petitions in relation to the analysis that it is carrying out of the existing young persons' scheme. We could establish what its view is of the requests contained in the two petitions for free and/or reduced fare bus travel for young people under the age of 16 and for those between the ages of 16 and 18. It is obvious, given fares of £6 return to Inverness—or a £10 return from Dornoch—that this is a pressing issue for younger people. The committee should write to the Scottish Government in those terms.
I support Bill Butler's suggestion, but if we write to the Scottish Government we should ask it what considerations it has given, or will give, to people in rural areas, given the issues that have been raised about the frequency and availability of transport in such areas, in addition to the cost. When we raise the issue with the Scottish Government, it is perhaps important to highlight the specific issues related to transport in rural areas and the cost of travel. One or two speakers have pointed out that in some urban areas it is easier and cheaper to get public transport, but in rural areas it is more difficult and more expensive to get around. I hope that the Scottish Government can be encouraged to consider the issue when it produces its final report on young people and transport.
As other members have indicated, given that we are in straitened financial times it might be difficult to achieve a satisfactory solution at this point, but it is worth bringing everything that we have heard today to the Government's attention. I assume that we will do so by sending it the Official Report of today's meeting.
Many people leave this area to go to university and only a small percentage return after graduation to stay here. The issue is not just one of equity but one of social inclusion because many young people of school age cannot even afford to see a film in Inverness or enjoy the many cultural aspects of the Highlands. That means that they leave this part of the world without having had the opportunity to travel around and enjoy the huge amount of culture that we have, much of which is centred in Inverness. If those young people had more opportunities to enjoy the culture of the Highlands, I suspect that that would contribute to encouraging them to come back to the region after graduation, which is a serious issue for the area.
Do we accept the recommendations of members of the committee and agree to keep the petitions open so that we can explore the points that have been made?
Members indicated agreement.
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