I welcome our first petitioners of the afternoon. Petition PE1114 is by Gillian Vance, on behalf of the Galloway Childcare Company, and calls on the Parliament to urge the Scottish Government to review its child care strategy to ensure that adequate funding is provided for child care services in all local authorities. Accompanying Gillian Vance is Lisa Templeton. You have three minutes, Ms Vance, to advance your position, which is set out in the papers before us.
Official Report · Committee
New Petitions
Child Care Strategy Review (PE1114)
Speakers
Choose an MSP to read only their contributions- Gillian Vance Galloway Childcare Company 25
- Frank McAveety Lab 11
- Nigel Don SNP 10
- Nanette Milne Con 5
- John Farquhar Munro LD 4
- John Wilson SNP 4
The record
59 contributionsGood afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I work for the Galloway Childcare Company, which is a social enterprise child care organisation based in Wigtownshire in the far south-west of Scotland. We submitted our petition last year in the wake of a financial crisis that threatened to close all our services, leading to the loss of 35 jobs and 190 registered child care places. Since then, we have been able to negotiate short-term support from Dumfries and Galloway Council to ensure the continuation of services until the end of March this year. However, it is unclear what support, if any, will be available from April 2008. Our immediate monetary situation has improved, but we are still living hand to mouth financially, and that looks set to continue for the foreseeable future. The fundamental problems of resourcing, sustainability and the lack of strategic direction will remain unless the issues are addressed in the Government's forthcoming early years strategy.The reason for our petition and for our longer-term aim of lobbying the Scottish Government is to ensure that the future of child care provision in deprived and rural areas throughout Scotland is fully considered, and that both the challenges and the opportunities are acknowledged as being distinct from those in more urban and affluent areas. Not all communities in Scotland are the same, therefore different measures need to be put in place if we are to achieve the initial national child care strategy aim of providing good-quality, accessible, affordable child care in every neighbourhood. The current financial crisis, which is referred to in our petition, emerged in November 2006, when a number of voluntary sector child care projects across Dumfries and Galloway indicated to the local authority that they would struggle financially during the current financial year. Since 1998, funding has been made available each year from the child care strategy fund to support fragile child care groups throughout the region. Initially, that funding was accessible only to voluntary sector groups with a deficit. Over time, that has developed into a grant system based on the number of places that are provided, and all providers from the voluntary, private and public sectors may bid. Ironically, the change penalised smaller providers that the system originally protected. The local change's impact on policy was camouflaged by the introduction in 2004 of several other funding streams that were available to the child care sector, including the new opportunities fund and out-of-school-hours child care and quality child care programmes. Several local groups were successful in securing up to three years' funding from lottery initiatives, and the investment undoubtedly led to an expansion in the number and quality of registered child care places. By the start of the current financial year, however, most of the grants had come to an end, and little alternative funding was available. Dumfries and Galloway is primarily a rural area, with a large number of small, isolated communities and many areas of deprivation. Developing and maintaining sustainable child care services has been a significant challenge, as the majority of groups secured grants in the first place because of demonstrable levels of deprivation in their catchment areas. It has proved impossible for us to become self-financing in the time that has been available. The unit costs of running small rural projects are higher than those for our larger counterparts in more densely populated areas, where demand is more consistent and economies of scale are possible. The NOF's own evaluation of the out-of-school-hours programme recognised that sustainability is difficult to achieve in disadvantaged communities. The NOF stated: "The funding has led to a robustness among childcare clubs with fewer closures than under previous childcare schemes. However, clubs, particularly in disadvantaged areas, demonstrated a need for additional grant funding if longer-term sustainability is to be achieved. Almost two-thirds of clubs included in the research reported that they would be looking to secure future grant funding if they were to continue operating."Many of the Galloway Childcare Company's child care places were originally set up with short-term start-up funding from the New Opportunities Fund. Now that the subsidies have ended, we find ourselves unable to generate sufficient income from parental fees alone. The introduction of child care tax credits has not enabled us to increase fees sufficiently, but a debate on the tax credit system would probably warrant a petition in its own right. For a decade, child care strategy funding has been made available to local authorities throughout Scotland specifically to support, develop and expand the local child care market. Dumfries and Galloway previously was fortunate. Until last year, the funding was ring fenced and was used exclusively for child care. However, the funds are increasingly being used to resource other local council activities. This year, council efficiency savings resulted in 43 per cent of the funding being top-sliced. We are aware of the introduction of the single outcome agreement from next year, and changes to how funding is allocated to local authorities may mean that even less financial support will be dedicated to child care. Previous national policies sought for the wider child care market to be a mixture of public, private and voluntary sector provision, and the role of each local child care partnership was to manage that market. The cost of providing quality child care in deprived or rural communities is higher than parents will ever be able or willing to pay. The private and public sectors recognise that the true cost of care in those communities is prohibitive to their operations. It is left to the third sector to continue to meet the needs of children and parents in remote or underprivileged areas. That is the reality of a sector that is driven by the free market economy, where the money follows the profit margin rather than the child. Where, then, is the principle of the child being at the centre, or the concept of universal services?I thank the committee for giving my colleague and me the opportunity to bring our case to your attention. I conclude by requesting that the committee give further consideration to two particular issues. We ask that members seek to ensure that the proposed early years strategy is developed to take full account of and make provision for the needs of rural child care services throughout the country. We also ask that you reflect on whether it is appropriate for a service as important as child care to be left to the vagaries and unpredictability of market forces in 21st century Scotland.
Members will now ask questions or raise points relating to either your written submission or the comments that you have just made.
Good afternoon, ladies. When did you first become aware that there was likely to be a diminution in the finances that are available for running the groups? Has the situation arisen in the past few months or has it been on the cards for some time?
In November 2006, several groups throughout Dumfries and Galloway realised that their funding streams were coming to an end and indicated to the local authority that that was the case. In February 2007, the council made cuts to the funding that was to be made available. The situation has evolved during the current financial year.
Were the cuts that were first imposed fairly substantial?
A 43 per cent cut was applied to the child care strategy fund that was available to Dumfries and Galloway Council. Not all of the fund is available to support projects—it is also used for infrastructure, the child care partnership and training. However, the amount for groups was reduced significantly. That coincided with the ending of funding streams for several groups, so more groups needed support than had needed it in the previous three years.
You will be aware that the previous Scottish Executive decided to support the type of schemes in which you are interested. According to our papers, that support is set to continue. Is your fear that, because the Scottish Government has decided to move away from ring fencing local authority funds, your local authority and others may not continue to be so considerate to organisations such as yours? Do you have any evidence of that?
We are concerned about Dumfries and Galloway Council's financial situation and its deficits. Obviously, the statutory responsibilities must come first. We have had no information about what, if any, support will be made available next year. We are working with the local authority, and the network for community child care providers in Dumfries and Galloway is working with the local authority and the child care partnership but, at present, no decisions have been made on the funding that will be available.
What proportion of your funding comes from the local authority?
It can vary from year to year, depending on how much external funding is available. This year, the figure will probably be a fifth.
What are your sources of external funding?
Lottery funding has proved to be a major source. In the past three years, we have raised almost £1 million through external funding, which has been spent on several activities. We developed projects and outside play spaces, and last year we funded purpose-built accommodation for one of our projects in Stranraer. The funding is mostly for capital projects—very little revenue funding is available. We can attract funding to buy things or to carry out tangible projects, but we require funding to contribute to core services, particularly funding for staff costs, but also for rent and utilities.
Is that basic set-up with regard to core funding and other funding the same for similar groups throughout the country?
I know that it applies to other groups in Dumfries and Galloway, and I can think of no reason why Dumfries and Galloway would be unique in Scotland. Groups that operate in rural or deprived areas face the same difficulties, whether they are in Newton Stewart, Stranraer or north-west Scotland.
From my experience in a previous existence I am aware of issues to do with funding for child care work. The volatility of funding other than local authority funding is a concern, if the Government is trying to promote universal, decent child care facilities throughout Scotland, as Nanette Milne said. Issues should be raised with a number of bodies, in particular the Scottish Pre-School Play Association. I did work with the SPPA on funding for child care throughout Scotland. The association knows where resources come from and how they are used.I am concerned that uncertainty about funding means that experienced, skilled staff tend to move on from projects to more secure employment rather than remain in their chosen vocation. We should flag that up. If we are to ensure that quality services are delivered, there must be consistent funding, whether it comes from local authorities or the Government.
I will pursue two lines of inquiry. First, Gillian Vance said that Dumfries and Galloway Council has debts. How big is the debt?
It is £9 million over three years.
What percentage of the total budget is that?
I do not know what the council's overall budget is.
There is no reason why you should do—I do not know, either. However, although £9 million is a lot of money, it does not sound like a huge chunk of the budget for an area as big as Dumfries and Galloway. We can find out about that.Secondly, the committee's briefing paper states that the Scottish Government has said that it will continue the previous Executive's child care strategy. The paper refers to the Scottish Government's commitment on"Expanding pre-school provision and making substantial progress toward a 50% increase in pre-school entitlement for 3 and 4 year olds".The commitment continues:"The entitlement to pre-school provision will be maintained"and increased. To what extent is the commitment relevant to what you are talking about?
It is not relevant, because we do not currently deliver pre-school education. We have done so and we entered into partnership with the local authority to provide a service in communities. However, currently we provide a different service.
Okay. I wanted to establish that the commitment is not relevant to your service.How good are your communications with the council? Do you talk to the appropriate directors? It might be better to ask whether they talk to you.
We have communicated at chief executive level as a result of the current crisis and we are trying to develop better working relationships with officers who have responsibility for the areas of work that we cover. I will be optimistic and say that the relationships are improving. However, relationships between the council and the voluntary child care sector have been strained during the past year.
Is that a reflection of the council's financial restraints?
The financial restraints are a contributory factor.
Would you care to comment on what the other contributory factors might be?
Not really.Communication has been poor. We are working to ensure that an arena is available for people to enter into appropriate negotiations about our needs and constraints and those of the local authority, and to identify a future direction. The child care partnership in Dumfries and Galloway is going through a period of review and the local authority is carrying out a review of child care, but those reviews have not been concluded. The problem that we face is uncertainty. There is the potential for improvement, but groups are operating in an information vacuum. We do not know what direction will be taken either locally or nationally in the early years strategy that is due later in the year.
Thank you for diplomatically not commenting—I understand your reasons.You say that the council is developing a strategy. Given what you have told us, it seems to me that it needs to have a strategy now rather than in the future. Do we have a timescale for seeing a draft of that strategy?
The strategy that I referred to is the Scottish Government's strategy, which is due out in October. We met Adam Ingram late last year and he showed us the work that was being done.
In no sense is it my job to criticise what Adam Ingram might be doing, but am I to understand that there is no strategy at the moment?
There is the previous strategy, which is being reviewed and updated to encompass many more children's services. The revised strategy will be an early years strategy, whereas the strategy that was introduced in 1998 was specifically a child care strategy. Child care will form a strand of a bigger, early years strategy.
The present strategy does not tell Dumfries and Galloway Council—or any other council—that it needs to support people like you.
It is up to each local authority to interpret the strategy to determine how they provide support. The argument that we have tried to make to our local authority and to the committee is that not every community and not every child care organisation operates in the same way. We are often accused of being inefficient when, in fact, we simply have higher unit costs because of the communities in which we operate.
I would like to get some clarity on timescales. Although there have always been issues surrounding child care funding and early years funding, a critical funding crisis emerged in November 2006—that is mentioned in the committee's background paper and you spoke about it earlier. Did you have the same resource base for 2007? In a month and a half's time, when the new financial year starts, will you as a provider face a more critical situation than you faced over Christmas 2006 and into early 2007?
We were aware from budget projections in 2006 that there would be shortfalls for some groups this year. The crisis did not kick in in November, but we alerted the local authority to the fact that it would kick in for some groups at various stages throughout the 2007-08 financial year. November 2007, when we were allocated funding to get us through to the end of March this year, was a critical point.In the intervening period, we have had to carry out a review of our organisation and to make some significant changes. As well as completely reviewing the management and operational structures, we have introduced cutbacks in pay and terms and conditions, and staff redundancies will come into effect later next month and the month after. Some big changes and difficult decisions have had to be made by the board to ensure that we will be able to continue from April 2008 onwards. We will be able to do so only as a result of making those cutbacks to services and structures.
So you have had to engage in that process because of the funding packages. Obviously, the local authority makes autonomous decisions in line with discussions with the Scottish Government education department.I have two questions. You mentioned that the Government's early years review will be published in October 2008. The situation is well out of kilter. That is not the Government's fault, but you are caught in the middle. Are you having a further discussion with the council? Are you having to put together a package that takes into account staffing numbers and management structures, in case a slimmed-down organisation is required to deliver what you have delivered in the past? Even if the Government presses all the buttons on the early years strategy by October 2008, that will not necessarily change the circumstances that you face over the next five or six months.
We have the resources in place to operate for another financial year. Beyond that, it is completely unknown.
Obviously, we have had stushies in the Parliament about devolved decision making and whether funds for child care and other services should be ring fenced. Are you concerned that locally there is a lack of clarity and consistency and that that might jeopardise your organisation's viability for the year beyond the difficult one that you are in?
Yes. We are concerned that there is not enough consultation with the voluntary sector, not only in relation to child care but in general, in determining what the single outcome agreement targets will be locally. We are aware that certain broad-picture expectations have been provided by the Scottish Government, but we are concerned that the fine detail has not been identified at a local level.
You indicated that you have taken steps to try to alleviate some of the financial problems that you will face come April. Can you explain the exact impact of those steps? First, what is the impact on staff? You indicated that you examined staff pay and conditions and reduced staff numbers. Secondly, what would be the impact on service delivery, particularly to young people in the area?
Seven posts have been identified for redundancy, which is about a quarter of our workforce. Staff costs represent our biggest area of expenditure. Staff have voluntarily agreed to a reduction in some of their terms and conditions. For example, sick pay has been eliminated and it was hoped that pensions would be brought in at some point, but that has now been ruled out.We are cutting back certain services. We are trying to ensure that, when it comes to the services that remain, the scaled-down organisation is still able to deliver provision of the highest quality that we can possibly manage, but obviously such a major restructuring involves some risks to the future of the organisation. The same amount of work will remain, but there will be fewer staff and volunteers to carry it out. Any organisation that goes through such a process faces such risks.
I understand that you are saying that no children who currently receive a service will be affected by the reduction in the number of staff.
Some children will no longer be able to access particular services. We have had to close certain services over the past few months. Certain communities to which we previously delivered out-of-school care no longer have that child care. Other projects are considering reducing the number of hours that they are open, so instead of opening from 8 o'clock to 6 o'clock they will cut back to a core service for a shorter time in the day.
As you are aware, although you are raising a specific issue, the purpose of the Public Petitions Committee is to consider the broader debate—in this case, about investment in child care, the anomaly involving the market pushing prices up, and the suitability and affordability of child care for folk in low-income parts of Scotland, and clearly the south of Scotland has been identified as having low-income households. In a sense, we are trying to utilise your concern in a bigger debate that we need to have with the various arms of Government, both national and local, and other support groups to try to get a more coherent service over the next few years. That does not mean that we can easily intervene in local decisions about budget allocations and so on, which the committee also needs to grapple with.In order to assist the petition we need to consider who we wish to raise the issue with and who we need to ask for clarity. There is a question about the timescale and whether a transitional budget is available for local authorities or for services such as yours in the voluntary sector that can handle the issue a bit more sensitively. A lot of staff are involved not because of the benefits that they get but because of the commitment they give to the service. We need to deal with that. I am keen to get a sense from members about how they wish to take on the petition. There were two core messages at the conclusion of your opening comments. The first was about ensuring that there is a national strategy for child care covering all ages and synchronising that with an early years strategy; and the second was about recognising the real cost of child care and finding a better way to cross-subsidise, or minimise, the cost to families.
On the issue of the national impact, we should write to the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities to find out the situation in councils throughout the country. As far as council budgets are concerned, does the issue have an impact on education and social work?
Yes, now that everything is together. In the past, there has been a specific ring-fenced child care strategy fund, but that will no longer exist.
Therefore, it might be of interest to find out from the directors of education and social work how they see things moving forward. We could write to their associations.
Do members have any other suggestions?
I know that the position is stated in our papers, but we could ask the Scottish Government whether it agrees that the policy is still up and running and that there has not been a change.
It might be worth writing to the Scottish Pre-school Play Association, which I mentioned earlier. I was interested in one of Ms Vance's responses about the end of provision of pre-school facilities, which I guess has happened because the funding for that has stopped. I have worked with the association, which provides a lot of assistance and advice to other organisations that provide child care. We could ask the Scottish Out of School Care Network about the impact at the national level. I am sure that such negotiations and discussions about the future funding situation are replicated throughout the other 31 authorities. The other organisation that I suggest we write to—I am not sure whether we have the competence to do so—is the Big Lottery Fund in Scotland, to find out what funding has previously been given. In the past, a number of the projects that provide child care facilities have received Big Lottery funding not only to purchase play equipment but to employ staff. It would be useful to find out from the Big Lottery how much grant funding has been given in the past and how many applications are being made for funding this type of work. I am concerned that a lot of the work that is done by organisations throughout Scotland that provide child care services is in effect being done on the cheap as far as local authorities and the Government are concerned. It is being subsidised not only by organisations such as the Big Lottery Fund, but, in many respects, by the parents and the staff who provide the services. As you said, convener, we need to get a true cost figure for the operation of the services to ensure that there is uniform delivery throughout Scotland and that a mix-and-match approach is not taken by the Government or by local authorities.
I certainly think that we should write to Dumfries and Galloway Council, asking what measures have been put in place to address the concerns about long-term sustainable funding and the delivery of services to the areas to which Gillian Vance's organisation has been providing those services—forby the fact that she is probably in fairly tortuous discussions with the council, as we speak, about the package of resources and what the organisation can or cannot have.We all have different views on the language around the removal of ring fencing. If the debate is about greater flexibility, one would hope that the local authority—working in partnership primarily with the voluntary sector, which supplies a lot of the providers—still has in place a coherent strategy and a commitment of resources. There should not really be any material difference, but I am concerned that that might be occurring in different parts of the country if we are not careful or vigilant. That is something for all of us—including ministers—to deal with. It would therefore be helpful to write to Dumfries and Galloway Council and the partnership that Gillian Vance has been working with, asking what solutions they are trying to find that will not jeopardise the quality of the service or result in the service being there in name only or as almost a skeletal provision in comparison with what it has been possible to provide previously.I do not think that members have other strong views on the matter. We have a range of folk to contact, who can give us a clear idea of the national picture involving both the Government and COSLA as well as the support networks that exist for pre-school and early years provision. They can also tell us about the timescale for feeding into the strategy. Has you submitted your views yet, Ms Vance? Indeed, have you been invited to submit views to any discussions that the Government may be having about its early years strategy?
No.
I would encourage you to do so. I presume that that will open up a possibility, and you have fairly candid views to express, given what we have heard so far today.
We would welcome that opportunity.
It is an accident of timing, but I imagine that, with local authorities having to set their budgets within the next few weeks—I am not sure of the precise timescale—we will get two different views on the issue. The first of those will be the immediate statement of what authorities plan to do in the next financial year, for which they must make the numbers add up now. I suggest that we revisit the issue in a few months' time, once that is out of the way. We will then probably be able to ask more coherent questions about strategy because the hoo-hah of the budget will be out of the way.
I know that you are in an anomalous situation, Ms Vance. As you leave here and go back to the reality of what you are facing, you will be thinking, "We're still committed to meeting this budget option, which means that we can do X, X and X, but we can't do what we used to do last year." Although we cannot resolve that for you today, we can use your experience to amplify a bigger debate about how we, as a nation, fund the early years sector.I was a member of the Education Committee when it looked into the early years sector—we made comparisons with what happens in other parts of the world, for example. Part of the problem is the fact that we need to persuade a lot more of our citizens to believe that it is worth making a contribution to that sector through their tax take. That is a dilemma for every politician around this table. People say in opinion polls that they believe in supporting such services, but they do not always confirm through the ballot box what they say in opinion polls. We need to grapple with that—that is the reality that we deal with.We will want to explore the issue with rigour on your behalf, as it is regrettable that we are facing this situation. It has existed for a while, and you have the most acute set of circumstances, which you will need to deal with over the next few months or so. We will explore the issue further and it will then return to the committee. We will give the Official Report of this discussion to the appropriate agencies—particularly the Government—saying that the issue has come before the Public Petitions Committee and asking whether they have comments to make on the situation and on what they are trying to do to resolve it. You will be notified when the issue returns to the committee for the next stage of discussion.I hope that the meeting has not been too onerous or challenging for you.
No, it was very interesting. Thank you.
Thank you very much for your time.
In this meeting
Everything on 29 Jan 2008 →- Scottish Parliament Public Petitions Committee Tuesday 29 January 2008 Petitions · 1
- New Petitions Petitions · 1
- New Petitions Petitions · 59
- New Petitions Petitions · 31
- New Petitions Petitions · 12
- New Petitions Petitions · 11
- New Petitions Petitions · 4
- Current Petitions Petitions · 5
- Current Petitions Petitions · 9
- Current Petitions Petitions · 10
- Current Petitions Petitions · 7
- Current Petitions Petitions · 7
- Current Petitions Petitions · 3
- Current Petitions Petitions · 4
- Current Petitions Petitions · 7
- Current Petitions Petitions · 4
- Current Petitions Petitions · 3
- Current Petitions Petitions · 8
- Current Petitions Petitions · 5
- Current Petitions Petitions · 5
- New Petitions (Notification) Petitions · 2
The type of each item (debate, statement, questions, members’ business and so on) and the times shown are worked out by this site from headings, the chair’s opening words and the Official Report’s running timestamps. They are not the Parliament’s own classification. Text: the Scottish Parliament Official Report.