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Official Report · Committee

New Petitions

Institutional Child Abuse (PE888)

Wednesday 5 October 2005 Public Petitions Committee Petitions 52 contributions · 8 speakers

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The record

52 contributions
Michael McMahon Lab The Convener · Hamilton North and Bellshill
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Petition PE888, by Chris Daly, calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Executive, in the interests of those who have suffered institutional child abuse, to reform Court of Session rules to allow fast-track court hearings in personal injury cases; to review the implementation of the Prescription and Limitation (Scotland) Act 1973; and to implement the recommendations of the Law Commission's report on the limitation of actions. Chris Daly, who is accompanied by Alan Draper, will make a brief statement to the committee in support of his petition, after which we will discuss its contents.

Chris Daly
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I thank the committee for inviting us to today's meeting.New rules and procedures for personal injury actions in the Court of Session that came into force on 1 April 2003 introduced a fast-track system as recommended by a working party under Lord Coulsfield. We want institutional child abuse personal injury cases to be handled in the same way as asbestosis cases, to ensure that they are dealt with within 12 to 13 months. We understand that, as well as the recommendations made by Lord Coulsfield's working party, recommendations made by the Scottish Parliament and the Executive led to courts showing sensitivity to users' needs.We are calling for a review of the Prescription and Limitation (Scotland) Act 1973 because there appears to be an oversevere interpretation and application of the defence of limitation in the Scottish courts. As a result, many personal injury cases that are brought by survivors of institutional child abuse cannot get off the ground. In that respect, there is a huge inconsistency with similar cases south of the border. For example, although actions that were raised as a result of abuse at Bryn Alyn children's home in north Wales were met with a time bar defence, the House of Lords refused leave to appeal and awards of £50,000 were made to the 14 claimants.On the third element of the petition, in 2001, the Law Commission suggested improvements to the law to make it fairer for survivors of abuse to start legal proceedings years after the event. The commission recommended that the definition of disability or incapacity be widened to suspend the limitation period during the currency of the disability or incapacity. It was also recommended that the definition of disability under the 1973 act include the inability due to mental disability to make a decision on the matter in question. The effects of child abuse, such as disassociative amnesia, clearly fall within the definition. Further, the Law Commission recommended that the individual characteristics and legal knowledge of the pursuer should be taken into account.

Michael McMahon Lab The Convener · Hamilton North and Bellshill
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Thank you. You referred to the fast-tracking procedures that were introduced for asbestosis and mesothelioma cases. My understanding is that that fast-tracking system was introduced because of a petition that was lodged with the Scottish Parliament.

Chris Daly
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That is right.

Michael McMahon Lab The Convener · Hamilton North and Bellshill
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Previously, there was a timescale problem, in that the cases of some who were diagnosed with mesothelioma or lung diseases caused by asbestos did not get to court because the person died before that stage. I do not mean to diminish the situation of someone who has been abused in an institution, but is there a similar timescale problem for such cases?

Chris Daly
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I understand that many people with the industrial illness asbestosis died before their cases could be brought to court. However, mortality levels for sufferers of institutional child abuse are also high, although perhaps not as high as in the case of asbestosis sufferers. For example, eight clients involved in civil actions have died in the past year. People in some test cases are filling the shoes of people from previous test cases who died while waiting for the cases to be brought to court. The effects of abuse increase mortality levels among survivors.

Michael McMahon Lab The Convener · Hamilton North and Bellshill
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Were the people who died in such cases elderly?

Chris Daly
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No, they were relatively young. For example, in one case the person was in their 50s. Abuse survivors have a decreased life expectancy.

John Scott Con Ayr
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It is a devastating point that child abuse causes reduced life expectancy. Are there clinical studies to back that up, or have you given an anecdotal analysis of a situation of which you are personally aware?

Chris Daly
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Alan Draper can come in on that.

Alan Draper In Care Abuse Survivors/In Care Abuse Support
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A number of clinical studies from the United Kingdom and elsewhere show clearly the impact of in-care abuse on children who spent long periods in institutional care and who probably also came from disruptive family backgrounds. They have problems with self-esteem and creating relationships, and those who suffered abuse that persisted over many years often feel that life has no meaning. Many of them maintain the hope that somehow their particular situation will receive justice. However, the delays that they feel the process creates—sadly, there are delays after delays—leads them to commit suicide rather than try to cope with the difficulties of life. They say, "Nobody is really interested in us."This is the first opportunity that I have had to thank the committee on behalf of In Care Abuse Survivors/In Care Abuse Support—the group that I chair—for the First Minister's apology last December for what happened in the past to those who suffered institutional abuse. We felt that that was a major step forward, which INCAS members widely welcomed.We now seek resolution, but how do we solve the problem? We feel that the time bar is restricting justice and that surely cases can be fast tracked. The Law Commission is looking into that, but we feel that the state is enormously complicit in the situation, because it is responsible for the regulations and it must acknowledge the effects of the time bar. We want matters to be dealt with urgently.

John Scott Con Ayr
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Are the courts generally sympathetic to overriding the time bar?

Chris Daly
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The limitation is applied severely. Section 17 of the Prescription and Limitation (Scotland) Act 1973 contains a delayed discovery rule that extends the basic three-year period until it would have been reasonably practicable in all the circumstances for a person to become aware of the relevant facts; for example, if the injuries in question were sufficiently serious to result in an action. The courts in Scotland have discretion to extend the time limits and thus override the prescribed time limits where it seems equitable to do so. However, there have been quite a few cases in which the provisions of section 17 were disregarded.

Sandra White SNP Glasgow
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Like most members of the committee—indeed, like most MSPs—I have had representations from individuals on this issue. Alan Draper is absolutely right: because it was debated in the chamber in December 2004, people have been expecting more from the Parliament and have expected the matter to receive closure. The Minister for Education and Young People, Peter Peacock, said that getting closure through the courts was beneficial to the survivors. Do you agree with that? Can you give us an idea of the age of the survivors? I would think that most are 50 and older.

Chris Daly
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I think that the age range of INCAS members is from mid-30s to late 50s.

Alan Draper In Care Abuse Survivors/In Care Abuse Support
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Our oldest member is 96; he was abused in 1919. He is not taking any action on that abuse; he merely wants to support the group in its work. I was speaking to him only yesterday, although he is a man in failing health. Abuse goes back generations. However, most of our members are in their 40s, 50s and 60s.

Sandra White SNP Glasgow
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The age range is much greater than I expected; most of those who contacted me were between 50 and 60. Because the Public Petitions Committee did a marvellous job in bringing the matter before Parliament, are people now expecting closure? Is that why fast tracking must come into play? We talked about fast tracking asbestosis cases so that they are heard within 12 months. Would you be looking for 12 months, or would you seek between 12 months and, perhaps, 18 or 24 months?

Chris Daly
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Some cases were brought as far back as the late 80s, and the people involved still have not had closure. Those cases have been going on for years and years, and therefore consideration should be given to fast tracking them. We could come and go on that, but we are not talking about many years; cases should be dealt with within a year or two.

Alan Draper In Care Abuse Survivors/In Care Abuse Support
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We feel at the moment that no sooner do we get over one hurdle than we come to another. We are still knocking down hurdles; we are nowhere near fast tracking. Lady Paton recently gave a judgment in the Court of Session on abuse at the De La Salle order's schools. Her judgment clearly indicated that the issue of a time bar should be looked at. However, the advice that we have received from our lawyers is that that could take four to five years. People cannot wait that long; the issues need to be dealt with now.

Jackie Baillie Lab Dumbarton
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I absolutely agree with your analysis. Although fast tracking is desirable, I think that it comes further down the line. There are differences between what happens with the asbestosis victims and your cases. That said, I am conscious that a legislative vehicle is coming along. Indeed, during his speech to the chamber, the minister indicated that the Scottish Law Commission was considering the issue of limitation and that we were to expect a paper in the latter half of 2005—which, by my reckoning, we are in—with ministers arriving at decisions early in 2006. Have you been involved in that process? Has the paper been published? Is that a suitable vehicle with which to make progress on some of the issues that you are concerned about?

Chris Daly
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In 2001, the Law Commission issued a report on the limitation of actions. The Association of Child Abuse Lawyers, which is waging a campaign, politically and through the media, is wondering why the legislation that was recommended in that report has not been brought into force. The Law Commission in England, which produced the report, works hand in glove with the Scottish Law Commission. Both commissions have made recommendations in relation to the time limitation issue that are not being taken up by the Government.

Alan Draper In Care Abuse Survivors/In Care Abuse Support
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We should be asking questions of the Scottish Law Commission. When does it hope to produce its paper? We should certainly remind it of the existing recommendation on legislation.

Michael McMahon Lab The Convener · Hamilton North and Bellshill
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Was the Law Commission report a United Kingdom report or an England and Wales report?

Chris Daly
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It was not a UK report. I believe that it was a report for England. However, as I said, the Law Commission in England works hand in glove with the Scottish Law Commission and the report would apply equally to Scotland.

Michael McMahon Lab The Convener · Hamilton North and Bellshill
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I was just trying to establish where the reports that have been released so far came from.

Rosie Kane SSP Glasgow
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I speak in support of the petition. Alan Draper thanked the committee for the work that was done leading up to last December, but I would like to pay tribute to him and to Chris Daly for the incredible amount of work that they have done. I know that they have lives to get on with and families and I think that their attempt to get justice has been incredible. On the timescale, I have met a woman of 85 who was abused and I knew a younger woman—she was in her 40s—who, sadly, died of cancer last year and whose quality of life, from childhood until she died, was severely reduced as a result of what had happened to her. She never saw the justice that Chris Daly and Alan Draper speak of. How long does it take someone to go through the system?

Chris Daly
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It takes many years, from when they approach the solicitor to when they report criminal activities to the police.

Rosie Kane SSP Glasgow
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Obviously, the process, which involves going through all the details of the case, has a detrimental effect on people. I know how difficult and painful that is. Can you give me any anecdotal stories about how someone feels when they open up, tell their stories and go through the waiting period? What does that do to them?

Chris Daly
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Some people do not grasp the fact that the process is long and drawn out. It can be extremely frustrating. Many of the survivors have issues with drugs or alcohol—they are knock-on effects of the abuse—which also devastate their lives. That will obviously have an effect in the family home if the individual is married. Survivors find it difficult to form relationships anyway. As I said, abuse devastates people's lives.

Rosie Kane SSP Glasgow
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So having a speedy process and getting justice meted out will form part of the healing process, as Mr Peacock said.

Chris Daly
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There is a huge inconsistency with cases south of the border. There have been many cases there where there has been closure, including that of the Bryn Alyn children's home. There have been various claims against Leicestershire County Council and Flintshire County Council. The cases in England and Wales have produced favourable results for claimants. They have seen justice. Here in Scotland, we are lagging behind.

Alan Draper In Care Abuse Survivors/In Care Abuse Support
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We have been speaking about closure, which is a complex area in itself. Survivors often want representatives from the institution or organisation that they view as being responsible for what took place to sit down with them and say sorry. That does not just mean a public pronouncement. They should sit down and ask survivors how they can help them and how they can resolve the situation. Closure is not just about achieving justice; reconciliation afterwards is also necessary. A victim wants a degree of reconciliation and understanding. We have written to many organisations, seeking to discuss things with them. We have received varying responses—I will put it that way.

John Scott Con Ayr
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Can you give us some idea of the scale of the problem? How many cases are awaiting resolution—at least, how many is INCAS is aware of? I am looking for a rough answer only.

Alan Draper In Care Abuse Survivors/In Care Abuse Support
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There are certainly hundreds.

Chris Daly
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Yes, there are hundreds of civil actions. There are also other people who are involved in INCAS who have not brought civil actions.

John Scott Con Ayr
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Can you be more specific? Is the number of cases 100, 300 or much higher?

Alan Draper In Care Abuse Survivors/In Care Abuse Support
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One of the lawyers involved has 600 cases.

Chris Daly
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Yes.

Alan Draper In Care Abuse Survivors/In Care Abuse Support
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That is just one of the lawyers involved.

Michael McMahon Lab The Convener · Hamilton North and Bellshill
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Do members have any recommendations on what we should do with the petition?

Helen Eadie Lab Dunfermline East
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Perhaps we could write to the Scottish Executive and ask for an update on the issues that have been raised in the petition. The petitioners have not asked for this, convener, but I wonder whether you might be disposed towards approaching the institutions that have not responded to Alan Draper, to seek reconciliation? I know that that falls slightly outwith the terms of the petition, but would you be willing to do that, and to write to the Executive? Alan has told us that he has had a variety of responses, but some institutions have not been responsive at all.

Michael McMahon Lab The Convener · Hamilton North and Bellshill
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I recognise exactly why you have raised that point. However, we have not yet closed PE535, the original petition. Under our consideration of that petition, we are still having discussions with various organisations on the matter of apologies from the institutions concerned. That is still on the table.

Alan Draper In Care Abuse Survivors/In Care Abuse Support
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I would like to add that we are working closely with representatives of the Executive, and we have been addressing those issues. We are very grateful for the co-operation from the Executive in that regard.

Michael McMahon Lab The Convener · Hamilton North and Bellshill
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Shall we write to the Executive on the matter?

Jackie Baillie Lab Dumbarton
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I suggest that we also write to the Scottish Law Commission and inquire about the timetable for its public consultation on limitation.

Michael McMahon Lab The Convener · Hamilton North and Bellshill
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Are members happy with that?Members indicated agreement.

Michael McMahon Lab The Convener · Hamilton North and Bellshill
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When we get responses from the Executive and the Scottish Law Commission, we will let the petitioner know and we will discuss the matter further then. We will keep him updated.

Chris Daly
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Thank you for your time.

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