Petition PE863, from Bill Alexander, calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Executive to amend the Solicitors (Scotland) Act 1980 to allow limited companies to be given either the right to apply for legal aid or the right to represent themselves in court. Bill Alexander will make a brief statement to the committee in support of his petition. You have three minutes or so to introduce the subject, Mr Alexander.
Official Report · Committee
New Petitions
Limited Companies (Court Representation) (PE863)
Speakers
Choose an MSP to read only their contributions- Bill Alexander 15
- Jackie Baillie Lab 6
- John Scott Con 4
- Michael McMahon Lab 3
- Helen Eadie Lab 3
- Rob Gibson SNP 2
The record
33 contributionsI will be brief. The Solicitors (Scotland) Act 1980 makes it a criminal offence for a corporate body to draft or prepare a writ. The Scottish courts have used that fact to prevent companies in Scotland from acting on their own behalf in court proceedings. Unfortunately, that means that a company that cannot afford a solicitor is denied the right to defend itself when an action is raised against it. It also means that a business that has not been paid and cannot afford a solicitor is not allowed to try to recover the moneys that it is due. Corporate bodies in Scotland do not qualify for legal aid. The main victims of that abnormality are small businesses that do not have the resources to employ solicitors. I believe that this situation is unfair and unjust. Further, as the cost of legal representation increases, more businesses will find themselves in the predicament that I describe.The courts have held that corporate bodies are entitled to human rights under article 6 of the Human Rights Act 1998 but will not allow them those rights unless they can afford a solicitor. Regrettably, the catch-22 is that any business that would like to challenge that interpretation of the act is denied the right to appear unless it has a solicitor. I believe that businesses should be given the right to represent themselves or, alternatively, be granted legal aid in the same way that individuals are.
You talk about limited companies, but businesses come in different forms. Small businesses are one thing, but some limited companies are large. You do not ask for any distinction to be made between large and small companies. Why is that? It might be more useful to try to highlight the problems of small businesses.
In practical terms, most of the instances that I have come across have been to do with small businesses. However, determining a financial limit as a point of law is difficult. How would we define what a small business is? A large business with cash-flow problems might face liquidation because it is not able to afford a solicitor. It is equally important that it be given the right to represent itself if the circumstances are suitable. The issue is about giving businesses access to justice in situations in which they cannot afford it.
Is there not a problem in the way we look at law with the acceptance of companies as persons? Would there not be a philosophical problem with going down the line that you suggest?
Under the Solicitors (Scotland) Act 1980, there is such a problem. However, in a case called Karl Construction v Palisade Properties, the inner house of the Court of Session determined that limited companies have human rights in that they have the right to a fair hearing at an impartial tribunal under article 6 of the Human Rights Act 1998. However, in some of the sheriff courts, the judges have decided that limited companies will not be able to get those rights unless they are represented by a solicitor, which has resulted in a strange situation developing in law.
Are you aware of the relevant policy of the Federation of Small Businesses?
No.
You have had no contact or discussion with the federation.
No.
Have you not thought about having such a discussion?
You are probably right—I have not thought about that. I was more interested in trying to get something done. I have usually found that if a matter has been raised in Parliament and has the committee's support, that has much more effect than operating through different bodies.
Thank you for lodging your petition and for your frank answers. The issue must have been a problem for a considerable time, so why has it not been addressed before? The situation appears to be anomalous and I am curious as to why it has not been dealt with in amendments to legislation in the past.
Trying to change the justice system in Scotland can be difficult unless a person is a member of one of the bodies that the Executive likes to deal with. If someone is not from the Law Society of Scotland or the Faculty of Advocates, they tend not to have much credence with the Executive.The other problem is one of reality. If a small business is struggling financially, cannot bring in money and stops trading, after which a different set of problems arises because personal guarantees have been given and the directors must deal with banks pursuing them or with liquidators, the principles behind the issue tend to fall away.
The Faculty of Advocates appears now to support an extension of legal aid. Do you have any comment on that? I presume that you welcome that.
Yes, but the extension is being considered not for businesses but for individuals.
Are you aware of why the faculty is not considering businesses? I am a layperson. Perhaps you could run through the arguments for me.
I can think of no reason not to extend legal aid to businesses, if they are not given the right to represent themselves. The honest truth is that I do not know.
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Can I have a sense of the scale of the problem? I understand that it prohibits any business from receiving legal aid, but I am not clear about the evidence that the problem is major. Have businesses approached you? Have surveys been conducted? Do data support your claim?
No research has been undertaken. My experience of trying to help small businesses is that they cannot go past a sheriff clerk, who will not accept a writ or allow a party to appear. A decree is awarded against a business, after which the insolvency process takes place. Insolvency practitioners rarely say that a business went under because it could not access the court. They will usually say that a business had cash-flow problems, bad debts or whatever.
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Is your experience from being a lawyer?
No.
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So you are not a lawyer.
I have a law degree, but I am not a lawyer. I do pro bono work for individuals and companies and I supplement my income by doing construction litigation. I speak just from practical experience.
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You have a good working knowledge of the law, so I wondered where that came from.The Law Society, which you mentioned earlier, has said that businesses can obtain insurance against most legal risks for a relatively modest sum. Is the proper route for many small businesses not to take out an insurance policy that will cover their legal expenses for most risks?
I am not sure whether the insurance covers situations in which a company pursues a party for bad debts; I think that it tends to cover situations in which a company is being pursued. I do not know what the cost of such insurance is. As with all insurance, the cost tends to go up, so slowly and surely some businesses will not be able to afford insurance.
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Do you agree that businesses are in a different position from individuals who apply for legal aid?
There is no question but that there are differences. Businesses do not have the same priority as individuals have in accessing justice. However, the issue is important and should be considered.
Do members have comments or suggestions on how to progress the petition?
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I am not greatly persuaded by the petition, because I am not sure whether there is evidence to support the claim that there is a problem. However, it would be appropriate for the committee to write to the Executive to ascertain whether it has plans on the matter. We should also write to the Law Society of Scotland and the Scottish Legal Aid Board and pursue Helen Eadie's suggestion by asking the Federation of Small Businesses whether it perceives that there is a problem.
Should we also write to the Scottish Chambers of Commerce, which works on behalf of small businesses and the Confederation of British Industry, which perhaps represents larger businesses? Notwithstanding the petition, if those organisations tell us that there is not a problem, so be it. However, we should turn over all the stones and ensure that the petitioner's concerns are thoroughly examined.
Are members happy for us to contact all those organisations, to seek as full a picture as possible of the subject matter? Mr Alexander, we will update you when we receive responses to our queries.
Thank you.
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