Parliament Workbench
Data: Official Report to 12 Nov 2026

Official Report · Chamber

BBC and Public Service Broadcasting

Tuesday 10 November 2026 Meeting of the Parliament About 16:16–17:32 Debate 80 contributions · 19 speakers Watch on Scottish Parliament TV

This is the draft Official Report. The final version may differ.

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The record

80 contributions
Clare Adamson SNP The Deputy Presiding Officer · Motherwell and Wishaw
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The next item of business is a debate on motion S7M-01962, in the name of Màiri McAllan, on the BBC and public service broadcasting in Scotland. There is no time in hand and any interventions must be absorbed within the speaker’s time. Members who wish to speak in the debate should press their request-to-speak buttons now.

16:16

Màiri McAllan SNP The Cabinet Secretary for Education, Culture and Gaelic · Clydesdale
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I welcome the opportunity to open the debate on the future of the BBC and public service broadcasting in our country, which comes at a critical moment. The debate responds to the BBC’s proposals to close the BBC Scotland linear service and to end entirely “News at Seven”. However, it is also about so much more, because the recent proposals—which, let me be clear, the Government opposes in the strongest terms—are just the latest in a long line of blows to the Scottish media landscape in recent years.

When we talk about the closure of the BBC Scotland television channel and the end of “Reporting Scotland: News at Seven”, we are also debating the strength of cultural expression in Scotland and the existence of locally relevant journalism. We are debating jobs and investment in our broadcasting sector, and we are confronting serious issues about democratic accountability for decision making.

The Government’s contention is therefore that the position is untenable and, alongside our colleagues in the Welsh Government, we are calling for the devolution of broadcasting powers to this Parliament once and for all, so that people will be accountable to this Parliament for decisions that are made. I will be interested to hear what members say in the debate, but I cannot imagine why any member would refuse that opportunity for their constituents.

Murdo Fraser Con Mid Scotland and Fife
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Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?

Màiri McAllan SNP Clydesdale
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On that note, I will be glad to take Murdo Fraser’s intervention.

Murdo Fraser Con Mid Scotland and Fife
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Can the cabinet secretary explain what the exact purpose of devolving control over the BBC would be—unless the Scottish Government is going to step up with substantial extra cash to support the BBC in Scotland, which it can already do if it chooses?

Màiri McAllan SNP Clydesdale
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Mr Fraser is very well acquainted with the fiscal framework within which this devolved Parliament and our Government operate, so he will understand that with devolution come the freedom and opportunity to invest as we see fit. Right now, we have a scenario where I am having to invest what we can, but ultimately the powers over broadcasting rest with the United Kingdom Government, which is underinvesting.

Màiri McAllan SNP Clydesdale
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I will take a brief intervention from Patrick Harvie.

Patrick Harvie Green Glasgow
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Although I am instinctively more in favour of the cabinet secretary’s position, which is in favour of devolution, is there a viable middle ground that the UK Government might be persuaded to support, whereby multiple Governments in the UK would have to jointly approve changes to the charter, agreement and licence, rather than having wholesale devolution?

Màiri McAllan SNP Clydesdale
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The BBC charter renewal is an opportunity to consider those matters, and the Government has been raising questions about accountability and decentralisation out of London and into the nations. I will move on to reflect on the engagement that I have had so far with the secretary of state and some of the feedback from the Westminster committee, but it does not give me a great deal of confidence that that is the direction of travel.

I want to consider the chronology and how we have found ourselves at a point where closure of the channel is proposed. In 2019, the BBC Scotland channel launched. It replaced the BBC Two Scotland opt-out. “The Nine” was introduced at that time.

Five years later—in August 2024—Ofcom approved the BBC’s decision to halve peak-time news requirements for the BBC Scotland channel. That marked the end of the very short life of “The Nine”. At that point, “Reporting Scotland: News at Seven” replaced the ill-fated “The Nine”. However, as sure as night turns to day, here we are, just two years later, facing the end of that programme, too.

In September 2024, the BBC announced plans to reduce the number of editorial and production jobs in the nations and regions, including by up to 30 jobs in Scotland.

In 2025, there was the end of “River City” and the decision not to renew the lease on the Dumbarton studio, which had been home to that programme for many years. Last year, too, the BBC instigated changes to Radio Scotland’s late-night programming, which has caused consternation among its community of listeners and artists.

In April this year, the BBC announced that it would cut between 1,800 and 2,000 jobs, with an aim of saving £500 million in three years. The first phase of those savings includes plans to make savings in Scotland of more than £10 million—which I ask the Parliament to note is the highest figure of any of the nations.

In recent weeks, the BBC Scotland director has communicated to me the intention to close the BBC Scotland channel and end the “News at Seven”.

That is a sorry chronology of seven years of disinvestment, job losses and, I have to say, a degree of disregard for the BBC’s obligations to Scottish audiences.

There has been no greater manifestation of that than—

Stephen Kerr Con Mid Scotland and Fife
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Will the cabinet secretary give way on that point?

Màiri McAllan SNP Clydesdale
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I am a bit concerned about time, Presiding Officer, but I will take a very quick intervention.

Stephen Kerr Con Mid Scotland and Fife
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Does the cabinet secretary recognise that the linear channel has very poor viewing figures and that the content of that channel was viewed by more people on iPlayer than on the linear channel? Therefore, when it comes to viewing habits, there is a certain logic driving the BBC to that conclusion, given the cost of the linear channel. Does she not agree that that makes business sense and that it does not take away from the availability of that content to Scottish viewers?

Màiri McAllan SNP Clydesdale
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That was not the short intervention that I was hoping for. Nonetheless, I will make two points in response. First, not everybody has ready access to iPlayer, whether because of age, ability to navigate technology or connectivity. Secondly, there is a logic, in that good programming follows proper investment. If Stephen Kerr is quoting the figures on those who have watched the BBC Scotland channel, I simply say in response that, had more been invested in that channel, we might not have found ourselves in this position.

However, I want to say a little about the practical implications. In the summer, when the eyes of the world were on Glasgow for the Commonwealth games, the irony was that nobody in Scotland could turn on BBC One and watch the games. I thank BBC Alba, which broadcast them in Gaelic, but the BBC position was untenable.

I have also put on the record a number of times my dissatisfaction with the significant disparity in funding between Welsh language broadcasting and Gaelic language broadcasting—a gulf of £95 million. I do not begrudge a single penny that is invested in Welsh broadcasting, but I cannot defend that significant gulf, and we cannot allow it to continue.

My final point to make in the time that I have left is that this is about cultural expression, jobs and investment, but it is also about democratic accountability. I have written on several occasions to the Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport about my concerns, but I have not received a reply. In the perverse constitutional set-up of the UK, we have a London Government minister who is in charge of broadcasting in Scotland who will not reply to correspondence from the culture secretary in Scotland, and, although I do not doubt that the members of the Westminster committee are doing their job for their constituents, none of them represents a Scottish constituency or Scottish interests. I note my time, Presiding Officer. We therefore have a significant gap in funding and in accountability.

In moving the motion, I ask members across the chamber to back the devolution of broadcasting so that members in this Parliament can hold the BBC and others to account for the decisions that they make, and so that people in Scotland can turn on their radios and televisions and see their lives authentically reflected back at them.

I move,

That the Parliament opposes the BBC's proposal to close the linear BBC Scotland channel and to discontinue Reporting Scotland: News at Seven; expresses concern that proposed changes could reduce access to Scottish news and public broadcasting, particularly for audiences who rely on traditional television services, and could impact jobs and investment in Scotland; highlights the contribution of broadcasting to Scotland's economy through investment in skilled jobs, the screen sector and the creative industries workforce; notes the importance of fair and sustainable support for Gaelic media and the continuing disparity in funding between Gaelic-language and Welsh-language broadcasting; believes that licence fee revenues raised in Scotland should be reinvested in full in Scotland; recognises the opportunity presented by the ongoing BBC Charter Review to deliver greater accountability, representation and investment for Scotland; believes that BBC television and radio must authentically reflect the lives of people in Scotland, and calls on the UK Government to devolve responsibility for broadcasting to the Scottish Parliament.

16:25

Katherine Sangster Lab Edinburgh and Lothians East
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I begin by saying that my thoughts are with the workers affected by the proposed changes to BBC Scotland. It is a deep shame that those proposals have had to get to this point.

It is of paramount importance that the BBC continues to support broadcasting in Scotland and, as the cabinet secretary said, that that broadcasting reflects our communities and places and tells our stories. However, when the BBC falls short, I do not believe that defaulting to more devolution is the way to hold it to account. Rather, that makes clear the need to ensure that this Parliament and Government are fully engaged in the charter renewal process and that Scotland has a strong voice at that table. I am concerned that, by calling for broadcasting to be fully devolved, we will not seize the opportunity in the here and now.

The cabinet secretary mentioned funding for Gaelic broadcasting, and I agree—as does the UK Government—that more needs to be done to provide stability and certainty. The Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport has said that it is

“exploring measures that would afford MG ALBA greater certainty and operational stability, ensuring that Gaelic-language media remains sustainable into the next Charter period and beyond.”

Stephen Kerr Con Mid Scotland and Fife
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Does Katherine Sangster accept that it is within the Scottish Government’s power to spend more on MG Alba? It could do that now; it is already the biggest provider of funding. The Government’s argument, based on its grievance, does not hold water, does it?

Katherine Sangster Lab Edinburgh and Lothians East
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I accept that it could do that, but I also say that the UK Government is open to having those discussions with the Scottish Government.

There is an opportunity to press the case for more funding as part of the charter review process, and I believe that the Parliament should take it. We need to see investment that continues to support and promote Gaelic language broadcasting, with the local economic growth that that generates in communities. We should not be beholden to one particular number but should look at the impact of the spend. We have an opportunity before us to address both of those things.

I am slightly puzzled by the Government’s call for the licence fee money raised in Scotland to be used exclusively in Scotland, which suggests that money that is not spent in Scotland does not benefit Scotland. There is a wealth of UK-wide content that is not produced in Scotland but is heavily viewed here—the Olympics, “Strictly Come Dancing” and Wimbledon, to name a few.

None of that is to say that the BBC does not require improvement—it clearly does—but we should be open minded and proactive about what that means. With the charter review comes the opportunity for Parliament to make clear what its priorities are for the next chapter of the BBC. We need to grasp that with both hands, not least because of the contribution that broadcasting makes to Scotland’s economy through investment in skilled jobs, the screen sector and, as the Government notes, the workforce in the creative industries.

However, we do ourselves no favours by pretending that broadcasting is not changing. Moving services online to protect them is a sensible measure. Stephen Jardine has warned that the BBC needs to keep track of the “breakneck speed” at which viewing habits are changing. People do not just sit and watch TV in a linear way any more. As Mr Kerr pointed out, streaming is more common, and people are catching up with shows on demand rather than watching them live.

However, when the nation comes together to watch live television, it is invariably on the BBC. “River City” was a huge success story in Scottish storytelling, and its cancellation is a blow, especially for Scottish actors, costume designers, set designers and so on. I go back to the question that I asked the First Minister earlier about the cuts to costume design at the University of Edinburgh. He told me that that was an operational matter, but there is no point in us in this chamber protecting Scottish filmmaking if we have no Scottish kids doing costume design at university in order to go into those jobs. I am not convinced that devolving broadcasting answers any of those questions.

A few weeks ago in this chamber, I spoke about our creative industries requiring a joined-up approach, and about how systematic barriers to accessing the arts are still in place and are not being removed with the urgency that that deserves.

I am glad that the Government has demonstrated such an interest in how the changes in the BBC will affect Scotland’s creative industries, but it must demonstrate the same commitment across all areas. I remind it of the areas that are under its control now. We need a strong college sector to train people and give them the technical expertise that is needed to sustain our creative industries; we need to ensure that those people are able to work in television in the future; and we need to reduce barriers to access.

According to the most recent Scottish household survey, a quarter of households in Scottish index of multiple deprivation 1 areas attended no cultural performances last year, compared with only 6 per cent of those in SIMD 5 areas. I urge the Government to stay focused on the issues that I have raised and to engage with the BBC in a positive and pragmatic way to ensure that it keeps telling Scotland’s story in music, drama, news and comedy.

I move amendment S7M-01962.1, to leave out from “opposes” to end and insert:

“believes that audiences in Scotland should have access to high-quality programming that tells Scottish stories and reflects the richness and diversity of its culture and communities; recognises the BBC’s important role in delivering this content and supporting Scotland’s creative industries, including independent Scottish production companies; believes that moving BBC Scotland content online and onto BBC Two provides an opportunity to protect this programming, including Gaelic content, while ensuring audiences can continue to access news on terrestrial television through Reporting Scotland; calls on the Scottish Government and all Members to engage fully in the BBC Charter Renewal process to champion Scottish broadcasting and to protect the future of public service broadcasting, and further calls on the Scottish Government to support Scotland’s screen sector by making the creative economy a national industrial priority and reforming the skills system and business support to reflect the needs and priorities of Scotland’s creative industries.”

Katy Clark Lab The Deputy Presiding Officer · West Scotland
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I call Victor Currie to speak to and move amendment S7M-01962.3.

16:30

Victor Currie Reform Highlands and Islands
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Let me start at the point at which the Government’s motion starts: with the BBC’s decision to close the BBC Scotland channel and end the “News at Seven”. I understand why people are anxious, and I associate myself entirely with Katherine Sangster’s words. Jobs are at stake, as are the independent production companies that depend on BBC commissioning, and nobody in this chamber should be indifferent to that.

However, a motion that just says no is not a plan. The motion asks the BBC to keep in place a model that audiences have already moved away from. The BBC is not closing the channel out of malice; it is closing it because it needs to find £500 million of savings by 2028.

As we have heard, this is not the first cut. In 2024, the flagship programme “The Nine” was axed and the channel’s news output was reduced amid poor viewership. Therefore, it is not a sudden shock but the latest stage in a long decline that we have had years to see coming.

However, why is it happening? It is because the way that people watch has changed. Ofcom’s latest “Media Nations” report found that viewers are now as likely to turn first to Netflix as they are to the BBC—26 per cent for Netflix versus 25 per cent for the BBC.

The figures that my amendment cites—

Stephen Kerr Con Mid Scotland and Fife
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Will the member give way on that point?

Stephen Kerr Con Mid Scotland and Fife
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An important point is that Scotland is one of the parts of the United Kingdom where, in an average week, more people consume content from the BBC on the BBC iPlayer than on all the other streaming platforms put together. That is an amazing statistic.

Victor Currie Reform Highlands and Islands
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I entirely concede that point.

Ofcom’s weekly reach figures indicate that 58 per cent of the population watch at least one BBC channel in a week, which means that more than four in 10 do not. Among people who are aged under 25, fewer than half watch any BBC channel in a full year. Those are not the numbers of a broadcaster that is in step with its audience, and the BBC has not adapted to long-term changes in media habits.

I say that without pleasure. I served in the Royal Navy and know what it means to depend on an institution that is proud of its history and that serves the public. However, pride is not a business model. An institution that cannot adapt to how people live does not survive by being defended; it survives only by being reformed.

I ask members to consider what problem the Government’s motion would solve. If the BBC’s difficulties are too few viewers and too little money, a new layer of governance in Edinburgh would fix neither. The Government has overseen the amalgamation of the fire and rescue services, supposedly to introduce efficiencies and to better serve the public. It has overseen the amalgamation of Police Scotland to create efficiencies and to better serve the public. The Government now intends to merge our health boards to create efficiencies and to better serve the public. Yet, when it comes to the BBC, the Government asks for a reduction in the level of centralisation, which just smacks of the politics of grievance.

Let us be honest about the licence fee itself. A household pays whether it watches one hour of the BBC or none, and a pensioner on a fixed income pays the same as a millionaire. It was designed for a world of a handful of channels and one television in the living room, whereas we now live in a world of on-demand viewing, where people pay for what they choose and cancel what they do not.

In the Highlands and Islands region that I represent, many households rely on a broadband connection that is not as strong as it should be, yet they are still expected to pay a compulsory charge for a service that is shrinking around them. That is why my amendment asks for something different: it does not ask the BBC to stay as it is; it calls on the UK Government to carry out a broader charter review, one that starts from what audiences want today.

That means looking at the BBC structure, at what it does well and at what can be provided without public money and—yes—at options to abolish the licence fee in the internet age. I want to be clear about what we are not saying. We are not saying that Scottish news matters less, nor are we saying that the people who make the programming do not matter. “Reporting Scotland” will continue on BBC One, as will “The Sunday Show” and “Debate Night”. A serious review can ask how Scotland’s audiences, including those in rural and island communities, are best served in the future, rather than how to keep a particular channel on a particular platform.

There is a real choice before the Parliament this afternoon. We can pass a motion that expresses concern, calls for devolution and changes nothing about why the BBC is in this position, or we can say honestly that the current structure is out of date and ask for a proper review that looks at every option. Concern is easy—reform is harder, but it is the only thing that will give Scottish audiences and the people who work in Scottish broadcasting a secure future. I urge members to support the amendment in my name.

I move S7M-01962.3, to leave out from “opposes” to end and insert:

“believes that the BBC has not adapted to long-term changes in media habits; notes that Ofcom weekly reach figures indicate that 58% of the population watch at least one BBC channel and that fewer than 50% of people aged under 25 watch any BBC channel over a full year; considers these figures to be evidence that the BBC’s current structure is out of date, and calls, therefore, on the UK Government to conduct a broader charter review of the BBC to ensure that it meets modern consumer demand, including consideration of options to abolish the TV licence fee in the internet age.”

Katy Clark Lab The Deputy Presiding Officer · West Scotland
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I call Q Manivannan to speak to and move amendment S7M-01962.4.

16:35

Q Manivannan Green Edinburgh and Lothians East
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Before I consider the motion itself, as there has been a bit of misinformation in the debate, I want to clarify the position. There has been a lot of conversation about the 88 per cent figure and why the motion asks for 100 per cent of the licence fee to be returned to Scotland. We can look at the other regions: 99 per cent goes back to Northern Ireland, and 110.2 per cent goes back to Wales. There is simply no explanation for that disjuncture.

Furthermore, MG Alba has often been brought up. As things stand, MG Alba’s own request is that the Scottish ministers should be involved in settling funding, because they do not currently have the power to do so—the current position is that agreement should be reached with the Secretary of State for Scotland. That is one of the reasons why I support the motion’s call for devolution.

I thank the cabinet secretary for bringing the debate to the chamber and for her immediate and swift intervention to strongly oppose the closure of BBC Scotland’s linear programming. However, it is a curious debate—I agree with parts of every other party’s amendments to the motion, but I am slightly baffled that they do not unequivocally oppose the closure of BBC Scotland and even more job losses. I agree with Katherine Sangster that we must

“engage fully in the BBC Charter Renewal … and … protect the future of public service broadcasting”;

I agree with David Green on

“the vital role of the BBC World Service in providing trusted … news”;

and I agree with my Conservative colleague Murdo Fraser that the BBC’s

“modernisation must not diminish Scottish news … or original programming”.

The BBC remains an essential foundation for the news, media and culture sector. I grew up watching it, just as many other members did. However, although there is consensus among broadcasters—as we have seen—on the need for an eventual shift to digital programming, every single broadcaster, in their briefings to members in the chamber today, has explicitly mentioned as a single line in passing that this shift can only happen if paired with universal digital inclusion.

As things stand, we simply do not have that. There are 230,000 households in Scotland that do not have access to the internet; one in six adults lack foundational digital skills; rural full-fibre coverage is only 50 per cent; an estimated 14 per cent cannot afford sufficient and secure internet access; and 77,000 homes cannot get superfast broadband—[Interruption.]

Do they not matter in our considerations, Mr Kerr, or are they bad for business? That divide disproportionately affects Scots who are women, those who are older and those who are on low incomes. Only 69 per cent of households with an income under £10,000 are online, while 99 per cent of those with an income above £40,000 are online.

Q Manivannan Green Edinburgh and Lothians East
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Not yet, Mr Kerr.

The move to digital-only programming will not affect anyone in the chamber. It will affect the person who learns of a death in the community from “Reporting Scotland” because her phone cannot tell her. The equal media and culture centre has warned that these cuts to BBC Scotland could disproportionately affect women and regress gender equity efforts in Scotland’s broadcasting and media sectors.

That is a concern. How are we not opposed to BBC Scotland shifting to digital-only right now, or to a UK Government green paper suggesting turning off Freeview in a few years? There is a growing movement of digital exclusion that somehow believes that public service broadcasters must function as if they are commercial businesses and make decisions that exclude hundreds of thousands of people without censure. That is unacceptable, and we cannot in good conscience allow it to proceed.

I lodged my amendment as a defence of the BBC and what it stands for, of what BBC Scotland means to us all and of how much we love what it brings. As we have all been warned, there may not be a BBC as we know it by the end of the next charter unless we intervene immediately, and the threat is existential. However, a BBC that is funded by advertising and paywalls will only commission what gets clicks and not what reaches the pensioner in Dunbar or a documentary on a small town in Fife. The answer is fair, sustainable public funding. I have significant concerns about commercialising core services that exclude those who are most vulnerable, and that is at the heart of my demand for creative origination. Scotland makes programmes for the BBC, but it does not decide which ones.

Stephen Kerr Con Mid Scotland and Fife
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Will the member give way on that point?

Q Manivannan Green Edinburgh and Lothians East
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I will take an intervention from Mr Kerr.

Stephen Kerr Con Mid Scotland and Fife
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There is much in what Q Manivannan is saying that I personally agree with. However, it is best to acknowledge that the changes at the BBC create BBC Two Scotland, which we do not have currently. Therefore, in effect, there will be more control in Scotland over the scheduling on BBC Two than there currently is. At the same time, I hope that Q Manivannan would accept that you cannot compel people to watch a channel that they do not want to watch.

Q Manivannan Green Edinburgh and Lothians East
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I will challenge Mr Kerr on that, because it is not about one channel now, is it? Channel 4 and STV have said the same about the move to digital programming. Does Mr Kerr agree with my points about digital exclusion? That is what we are dealing with. This is not only about BBC Scotland; as the cabinet secretary mentioned, we are dealing with a long line of cuts to linear programming. [Interruption.] I will continue to make progress, if that is okay.

As we know, the BBC must spend 8 per cent of its network budget here, and the production counts as Scottish only if the company has a substantive base in Scotland. My amendment asks that commissioning decisions and ownership of intellectual property rest with independent producers based in Scotland. We are now a nation that simply hosts the cameras and offers the beauty of our landscape and culture for sale, without the agency that we deserve.

As I am here asking the Parliament to save the BBC, I also owe it criticism. It cuts the words “Protect the dolls” from a contestant’s T-shirt and “Free Palestine” from a BAFTA speech. It watches quietly as the people who most need a public broadcaster to look them in the eye watch it cower away from three simple words. Disinformation lives on a trusted institution’s single mistake. The answer to being attacked is not to profit from distrust or to flinch from every contested word. It is to be quick, open, and unembarrassed about the truth.

Again, I oppose the arithmetic modernisation of public good, which cannot be called progress when the costs fall on people nobody will have to look at: the woman with no broadband; the man learning English from the radio; the young trans person—

Katy Clark Lab The Deputy Presiding Officer · West Scotland
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Could the member wind up, please?

Q Manivannan Green Edinburgh and Lothians East
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That is why I support the motion of the Government. I move amendment S7M-01962.4, to insert at end:

“; believes that the Charter Review should secure creative origination in Scotland, with commissioning decisions and ownership of intellectual property resting with independent producers based in Scotland; recognises the BBC as a vital public good that faces an existential threat without a sustainable settlement; expresses concern at the commercialisation of core BBC services and believes that the answer lies in fair, sustainable public funding that keeps services universal and affordable, and calls on the UK Government to ensure that digital terrestrial television services are not discontinued until every household has an affordable alternative.”

Katy Clark Lab The Deputy Presiding Officer · West Scotland
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I call Murdo Fraser to speak to and move amendment S7M-01962.5, for up to four minutes. I believe that it has already been announced that interventions will have to be incorporated into speech time.

16:41

Murdo Fraser Con Mid Scotland and Fife
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I welcome this opportunity to debate the BBC and the important role that it plays in Scottish public life. I simply regret that the debate is too short; I have only four minutes, but there is much more that I would like to say on this topic.

It is right that there is public scrutiny of the BBC, because it is unique among broadcasters in the way that it is funded through the licence fee. Other broadcasters effectively have to stand or fall on their ability to attract audiences and therefore generate income through either advertising or subscriptions. However, the BBC is different, because it is funded by a licence fee paid by all of us. It is not technically a tax, although it has many of the characteristics of one, as there is a civil penalty for people who do not pay. And yet, as we know, increasingly, the licence fee is treated as a voluntary tax: increasing numbers of people do not pay the licence fee and, often, do not face any consequences for that. That makes it all the more important that the BBC retains public trust; otherwise, people will opt out and not contribute. In that respect, the BBC needs to be held to a high standard.

That statement could not be more timely, given that just this week we have seen the sentencing of Russell Brand for hideous offences. He is someone who was given a platform by the BBC, first, as a comedian, and then, astonishingly, as a supposedly credible political commentator, despite his crackpot views. All of that was going on at a time when his appalling behaviour towards young women was widely known and excused. Indeed, there were times when his behaviour was made a joke of. A generation ago, we had exactly the same situation with Jimmy Savile. It is essential that lessons are now learned from these episodes.

The BBC has a significant production and economic footprint in Scotland, with the great majority of public service broadcasting spend per viewer being from the BBC. We have excellent programmes based in Scotland, with dramas such as “Shetland”, “Granite Harbour”, “Rebus” and “An t-Eilean”, as well as other BBC commissioned programmes for the network. Content is produced from studios across Scotland, providing local employment, and there is also important support for Gaelic TV and radio. Every £1 spent by the BBC generates £3.49 in the economy.

The cabinet secretary’s motion calls for the devolution of broadcasting. She will not be surprised to hear that we are not keen to support that, because, to us, the strength of the BBC is that it is a UK-wide institution. It also makes me nervous when I hear politicians saying that they want control over the media. Nor do I agree with the point in the Government’s motion about the end of the BBC Scotland channel.

Màiri McAllan SNP Clydesdale
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I gently challenge the position that the Government is looking to take control of the media. That is not what I said. All I am seeking is to have the powers over broadcasting in a way that is similar to the way that we operate all other devolved powers and for those powers to be similar to those that the Secretary of State for Digital Culture, Media and Sport currently holds—the same secretary of state who will not write back to Scotland’s culture secretary.

Murdo Fraser Con Mid Scotland and Fife
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Well, I am not here to answer for the Labour secretary of state. However, it is right that, as a UK-wide institution, the BBC should be accountable to the UK Parliament.

Essentially, the BBC Scotland channel was established as a sop to the nationalist Government, which wanted more dedicated Scottish output. The sad reality is that it failed. In a highly competitive market, it simply did not generate the number of viewers necessary to sustain it. That is not the fault of the production quality or the presenters. It had some excellent programmes, including news programmes such as “The Nine” and “The Seven”, but—

Katy Clark Lab The Deputy Presiding Officer · West Scotland
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The member will not be able to take an intervention because he should be moving toward winding up.

Murdo Fraser Con Mid Scotland and Fife
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Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer.

The channel simply did not attract enough viewers to sustain it and we know that there have to be savings. Sadly, that means that there will be redundancies. That will create a morale problem in BBC Scotland and mean that there is a less certain future for young journalists who want to build a career in broadcasting.

My amendment makes the important point that BBC reorganisation and the need for savings should not diminish the quality of Scottish output. The BBC in Scotland should not dumb down its output—

Katy Clark Lab The Deputy Presiding Officer · West Scotland
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The member needs to wind up.

Murdo Fraser Con Mid Scotland and Fife
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Its quality news coverage is what distinguishes it from other platforms and providers.

Katy Clark Lab The Deputy Presiding Officer · West Scotland
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I will have to cut the member off.

Murdo Fraser Con Mid Scotland and Fife
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That is why it needs to be different.

I move amendment S7M-01962.5, to leave out from “opposes” to end and insert:

“recognises the importance of independent, impartial and trusted public service broadcasting; believes that BBC modernisation must not diminish Scottish news, current affairs or original programming; calls on the BBC to strengthen its coverage of the Scottish Parliament, including scrutiny of government, and maintain investment in Scottish jobs, skills and production; recognises the importance of Gaelic broadcasting and that the Scottish Government already has the power to increase funding for MG ALBA; believes that the BBC must be accountable, maintain public trust and deliver value for licence fee payers; affirms the importance of a strong, independent, UK-wide BBC that serves Scotland well, and considers that the forthcoming Royal Charter renewal is a crucial opportunity to reinforce the Corporation’s independence, governance and long-term commitment to high-quality public service broadcasting.”

Katy Clark Lab The Deputy Presiding Officer · West Scotland
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We are tight for time. I call David Green to speak to and move amendment S7M-01962.2, for up to four minutes.

16:46

David Green LD Caithness, Sutherland and Ross
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Let us be clear about why we are having this debate. The licence fee income is 25 per cent lower—that is £1.2 billion—in real terms than it was at the start of the current BBC charter. Therefore, we cannot come to this chamber and pretend that the BBC is not going to have difficult choices to make. Nor can we pretend that the impact will not be felt right across the UK; it will. The question before us is not whether change is coming—it is—but what we are to protect among those changes that will be made. For the Scottish Liberal Democrats, the answer is clearly that we must protect: trusted local journalism; jobs and production in Scotland; and public service broadcasting that reflects not only the communities that it serves but the values that we all share. That is why I have lodged my amendment.

Many members, including those in my party, have concerns about the proposed closure of the linear BBC Scotland channel. We should express those concerns. However, those concerns must be about more than simply the name on the door. The BBC has already had successive rounds of voluntary redundancies that have resulted in the loss of experienced staff. There has also been an increasing expectation to expand the BBC’s digital output while maintaining the delivery of television and radio. To me, that means doing more with less and, as Murdo Fraser said, I worry about the impact on staff morale.

It should go without saying that local journalism is essential. That is particularly important for the part of the world that I represent in the Highlands. Too often, broadcasting debates are viewed through a central-belt lens, yet communities across the Highlands and many other parts of our country face different challenges and opportunities, such as when ferries are cancelled, the weather cuts off communities or decisions are taken that affect crofting, fishing or rural life. Those decisions and issues have a profound impact on the people who are affected. They may not always make the national headlines but they deserve to be reported on, and they are best reported by journalists who know their communities, understand the local context and recognise stories that might otherwise be overlooked.

Therefore, I am concerned about the future of local BBC Radio Scotland opt-out services, including those in the Highlands and Islands. Although audience habits are changing, any move away from that traditional broadcasting service must not come at the expense of local journalism, which does all the storytelling that we care about.

I put on record the uncertainty around the BBC’s local democracy reporters, who are incredibly important for the accountability of local politics up and down our country. That should be protected, too. I also recognise the importance of Gaelic broadcasting. Gaelic-language media is a vital part of our cultural life and helps to sustain one of our oldest languages. I recognise the concerns raised by John Morrison, the chairman of MG Alba, who fears that Gaelic is falling behind in terms of financial support. Although there is a fair debate to be had about spending per head and the Government’s role in that, nonetheless, I recognise those concerns.

Although much of today’s debate has focused on Scotland, we should recognise that one of the BBC’s greatest assets is the BBC World Service, which is one of the most respected news organisations in the world. I know from my time working for Christian Aid that the BBC World Service provides invaluable support in crisis zones. Every day, millions of people rely on it for trusted, accurate and independent news. At a time when misinformation is spreading rapidly and trust is in short supply, that role is even more important. We should express that view loudly and clearly. I recognise that the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office has a role to play in the funding of the World Service.

Changes are needed. Those changes, alongside the reaffirmation of the values that make the BBC world renowned, should be debated and scrutinised as part of discussions on a future permanent BBC charter, which the Liberal Democrats believe should be subject to ratification by the Scottish Parliament. That perhaps relates to the middle way that Patrick Harvie mentioned in an earlier intervention.

We should be concerned about the cuts, but the debate should be about more than one view of what Scots receive from the BBC. It should be about protecting what makes public service broadcasting valuable—

Katy Clark Lab The Deputy Presiding Officer · West Scotland
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Could the member wind up, please?

David Green LD Caithness, Sutherland and Ross
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It should be about trusted journalism, local voices, programmes being made in Scotland and coverage that reflects not just Scotland but these islands and our place in the world.

I move amendment S7M-01962.2, to leave out from “opposes” to end and insert:

“expresses concern regarding the BBC’s proposal to close the linear BBC Scotland channel and to discontinue Reporting Scotland: News at Seven; recognises the importance of public service broadcasting, trusted journalism and investment in Scotland’s creative industries; notes changing audience viewing and listening habits and the increasing use of digital and on-demand services; believes that the BBC should continue to support the production of high-quality news, current affairs and other programming in Scotland, reflecting the diverse experiences of communities across the country; further believes that locally- and regionally-based news gathering, reporting and regional news bulletins are essential to ensuring that communities across Scotland are properly represented in public service broadcasting; recognises the cultural importance of Gaelic broadcasting and the need for sustainable support for Gaelic-language media; further recognises the vital role of the BBC World Service in providing trusted and independent news to audiences across the world; believes that the BBC must continue to deliver value for licence fee payers while maintaining high-quality public service content; recognises the opportunity presented by the Charter Review process to strengthen accountability and representation for Scotland within the BBC, and believes that any future permanent BBC Charter should be subject to ratification by the Scottish Parliament.”

Katy Clark Lab The Deputy Presiding Officer · West Scotland
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We move to the open debate. We are 20 minutes behind time, so it would be helpful if members could attempt to stick to the time limits that have been agreed.

16:51

Pauline Stafford SNP Bathgate
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I will try my best, Deputy Presiding Officer.

The BBC has been the backdrop to many of our lives, and we all have our own relationship with it and have parts that we value most. However, for many in Scotland, that relationship has become increasingly complicated. With the BBC’s charter up for renewal, we are at a critical juncture, so the Parliament must consider what the future of public service broadcasting should look like in Scotland.

The issue of trust is central to that conversation. We need trust that Scotland’s stories will be told by and for Scotland; we need trust that public service broadcasting is valued as a public good, with citizens at its heart, not just consumers; and we need trust that our public service broadcasters understand that Scotland is a nation, not a region of the UK. When only 88 per cent of what is raised in Scotland through the licence fee is invested back into Scotland, that erodes trust. When a decision is made to move BBC Scotland’s linear channel online, despite Scotland having a larger digital connectivity gap and, proportionally, more older people, that erodes trust. When our public sector broadcaster cannot place Aberdeen accurately on a map while discussing the carving up of our energy resources, that erodes trust.

If the current devolution settlement, in which broadcasting powers are reserved, cannot deliver for the people of Scotland, Westminster should move aside and devolve those powers to the Scottish Parliament. We need a broadcaster that invests fairly and transparently in Scotland and that is ambitious for Scotland and our world-class arts and culture sector, which I want to focus on.

The BBC must recognise its privileged position in Scotland’s cultural and musical ecosystem. Scotland has never lacked creative talent or stories to tell, but we need sustained and meaningful opportunities to communicate them. The criticism of recent changes to BBC Radio Scotland’s late-night music programming has been well documented, but those changes point to something far wider than individual programming choices. Analysis by the Scottish Music Industry Association showed that, in the first two weeks following the implementation of the changes, new music plays went down by 69 per cent and the amount of overall Scottish music played went down by 26 per cent. Such opportunities are essential for musicians early in their careers as they try to build visibility and momentum; for many Scottish artists, first plays by knowledgeable and trusted presenters have often been key to their breakthrough.

Equally, the threat to cut coverage of the world pipe band championships is extremely concerning, especially because I am lucky enough to have the 2023 world champions—Boghall and Bathgate Caledonia pipe band—in my constituency, but more generally because that would seriously diminish grass-roots piping and undermine Scotland’s international cultural standing in that area. Can we imagine who would broadcast the championships if Scotland did not?

This morning, the Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee heard that we stand at a critical juncture for the wider media landscape, with existential challenges lying ahead. Never before have we needed public sector broadcasting as much as we do now—for community cohesion; for democratic participation; to build digital literacy among all age groups; for our emergency resilience response, as David Green mentioned; and as a counterbalance in a post-truth world. We have a responsibility here to make the case for that, but we want to be equal partners and not bystanders confined to witnessing a managed decline.

We need a broadcaster that is ambitious for Scotland, accountable to Scotland and invested in Scotland’s future. That is the challenge, and the opportunity, before us and is one that I hope the BBC can rise to.

16:55

Jack Middleton SNP Aberdeen Central
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I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate. When we talk about cuts to regional broadcasting, we are not talking simply about fewer programmes and journalists or a centralised news output; we are talking about the real-life impact on people and communities and how they shape our views.

For more than 60 years, Aberdeen was the heart of broadcasting in the north of Scotland. Generations grew up watching Grampian Television, but Grampian did more than report the news. It cemented Aberdeen and the north-east on the map, and it took the big stories and showed what they meant locally.

In the 1960s, while the fight for equal pay was a national issue, Grampian captured women taking that fight to the streets outside our Beach ballroom.

In the 1970s, when North Sea oil began to transform Aberdeen and Scotland’s economy and energy became a defining national issue, just as it remains today, Grampian captured what that transformation meant to workers, their families and our communities, whose lives were changed overnight.

In the 1980s, national broadcasters reported Aberdeen’s footballing triumphs, but Grampian captured what the Dons did best, beating Real Madrid and Bayern Munich and cementing our place as Europe’s premier outfit—I reflected heavily on that as Hibs slotted their fourth goal past us on Saturday.

In great seriousness, when the Piper Alpha tragedy struck, Grampian understood the devastation of a city in mourning and the impact that that would have for generations.

There is a world of difference between getting a mention on the 6 o’clock news and feeling connected to a broadcaster that understands your city. National news reports the story; regional news brings it home. Local journalists have connected us to the people and places that define the north-east.

The BBC also has a proud history of championing the north-east, having broadcast from Aberdeen for more than a century. I am incredibly fortunate to have the historic BBC Beechgrove studio in my constituency. It is a landmark with deep roots in the city that it has served so well.

Who is protecting that footprint and the journalists who bring stories to life? For decades, we have watched the weakening of the north-east broadcasting presence. First, there was the loss of Grampian TV, and then we had the ending of the STV North news programme. Now, rather than filling the gap in trusted regional coverage, the BBC has, sadly, followed a similar path. Without dedicated regional journalism, cities like mine risk being pushed further and further down the running order.

I would argue that that is why we need a regulator. Ofcom exists to protect public service broadcasting, to uphold licence commitments and to ensure that audiences across the country are properly served. However, when STV proposed axing its news provision in the north, Ofcom approved those changes without a second thought and despite overwhelming opposition from viewers. At a time when broadcasting needs protecting more than ever, Ofcom has enabled its erosion.

This is about more than the decline of local journalism. In an age of disinformation, when fake news poisons informed debate, trusted local reporting has never been more important. Without it, we risk losing the voices and accountability that strengthen our democracy. As MSPs, we have a duty to fight for our constituents and to defend those pillars of trust but, ultimately, it is Ofcom’s responsibility to uphold the standards that we have rightly come to expect in Scotland. That must mean protecting regional journalism, not presiding over its decline.

16:59

Colm Merrick SNP Glasgow Anniesland
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I had hoped that today’s debate would offer Parliament an opportunity to come together to send out a clear message that we are united in our opposition to the cuts and in standing up for those who will be most affected. I am talking about older people, those on low incomes and those who are digitally excluded. As always, hope sometimes does not work out. However, I would still encourage colleagues to see the cuts for what they really are: another step in the gradual erosion of Scotland’s broadcasting landscape.

We have already witnessed the hollowing out of Scottish services at STV, and it cannot seriously be suggested that STV could simply step in and fill the gap. According to the most recent research, STV broadcasts the main UK-wide network from London for 90 per cent of the day.

That is part of a much wider problem. Scotland remains poorly served when compared with other nations of comparable size. In fact, Scotland is one of the worst-represented nations across the whole of Europe, with European Union-wide media studies classifying Scotland’s autonomy as moderate to low, which means that we rely heavily on the UK-wide network infrastructure. By comparison, Catalonia and the Basque Country score highly, which means that they operate fully independent, multichannel regional public networks.

The Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee’s report “Scottish Broadcasting”, which was published earlier this year, noted that, a quarter of a century after devolution, there were still significant concerns over

“persistent systemic shortcomings”

in news coverage, which led to an

“erosion of trust”

and a

“growing suspicion in the mainstream media”.

The committee also raised concerns about the

“depth of the coverage of the Scottish Parliament’s proceedings with the Director-General”,

noting that there was

“little interest from BBC Scotland in covering the work”

of the Parliament. Indeed, if we look specifically at this morning’s media coverage of this debate, it tells its own story. The National led with calls for the devolution of broadcasting, Holyrood led with

“BBC being hollowed out by cuts”,

and even the right-wing favourite, the Scottish Daily Express, led with

“SNP bid to gain control of BBC Scotland is ‘straight from the Goebbels playbook’”.

However, the BBC was, I am sad to say, silent.

We need to fight not only for a reversal of these cuts but for more relevant content that reflects the realities of today’s Scotland and, ultimately, for the power over broadcasting to be devolved. That must also mean proper investment in Scottish broadcasting, fair funding for Gaelic media and a commitment to reinvesting in Scotland the licence fee revenue that is raised here.

The forthcoming BBC royal charter review provides an opportunity to address the long-standing inequalities, but Scotland must have a meaningful say in shaping its broadcasting future because, while England is set to lose “Blankety Blank”, Scotland is set to lose a flagship news programme. Presiding Officer, that is simply blank.

17:02

George Adam SNP Paisley
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I am beginning to think that broadcasting in Scotland has become a recurring theme during my time in the Scottish Parliament. Well—that, Paisley, St Mirren, and Stacey and the rest of my family.

A long time ago, in session 4, in a room in the bowels of this building, I questioned the BBC management as a member of the Education and Culture Committee. More than a decade later, I found myself asking the same questions in the last public session of the CEEAC Committee. At this rate, I might get a satisfactory answer before I retire. Luckily, I am not planning on doing that any time soon.

The fundamental question remains: who is Scottish broadcasting there to serve? I believe in the BBC and in public broadcasting, but supporting the BBC does not mean accepting every decision that its management makes. Closing the BBC Scotland channel and scrapping “Reporting Scotland: News at Seven” is the wrong decision.

I was interested in the comments of broadcaster and former Channel 4 executive Stuart Cosgrove, who described the BBC Scotland channel as a “huge missed opportunity”. I agree. He argued that Scotland should have had an ambitious channel that offered drama, comedy, arts, documentaries and programming that we would all queue up to watch. Instead, scheduling decisions and a lack of ambition restricted what could have become a better channel. The BBC had an opportunity to create something genuinely special for Scotland, but rather than fulfilling that ambition, it now proposes to walk away from it. In the end, it was a poorly executed undertaking.

What is happening here cannot be separated from what is happening in commercial broadcasting. During the CEEAC Committee’s inquiry in the previous session of Parliament, I was deeply critical of Ofcom’s handling of the STV North changes. At one point, I asked what the point of Ofcom was. What is the point of a regulator that never seems to want to regulate? I kept asking who was standing up for the viewers. I sometimes wonder whether Ofcom sees itself as a regulator or as simply a facilitator of whatever broadcasters want to do next. A regulator should not simply manage the decline of public service broadcasting—it should protect the public’s interests. I remain unconvinced that Ofcom is doing enough.

I also warned about Comcast, the American media giant that owns Sky, and the possibility of further consolidation through the purchase of ITV. In the future, it could bid for STV. What would be left of Scottish broadcasting then? Would decisions still be made in Glasgow, or would Scottish journalism become another line on a corporate spreadsheet thousands of miles away?

I am not predicting a takeover; I am warning about the consequences if we fail to look at this and act now. When commercial broadcasters face pressure from shareholders and international corporations, we need stronger, not weaker, public service broadcasting. Let us not forget that ITV and STV still have a public broadcasting element to their business. That is precisely why the BBC proposals concern me.

During my time on the Education and Culture Committee, I questioned BBC management about staffing and pressures on journalism. More than a decade later, we are still discussing cuts and centralisation in the context of the future of Scottish journalism.

Scotland has the talent, but there needs to be a commitment to invest in it. The licence fee revenues that are raised in Scotland should be invested here. That is why I support devolving responsibility for broadcasting to this Parliament. That is the only way that Scotland’s voice will be heard.

The BBC is not simply another media company. Scottish broadcasting is not simply another commercial market. It is part of who we are. It tells our stories, records our history, celebrates our achievements and asks the difficult questions when things go wrong.

Our communities have extraordinary stories to tell. The people who we represent matter. Their stories matter. They deserve more than to be treated as figures on a balance sheet. We should hear their stories of hardship, humour, courage and hope. We should never have to ask permission for Scotland’s voice to be heard. Our people deserve to be seen, our stories deserve to be told and Scotland’s voice deserves to be heard. Scotland is not a region to be managed, a market to be exploited or a cost to be cut. Scotland is a nation with a story to tell.

17:07

Keith Brown SNP Clackmannanshire and Dunblane
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I thank all my SNP colleagues, because it has been heartening to see so many SNP colleagues wanting to speak in the debate.

George Adam mentioned the words “broadcasting”, “Scotland” and “Scottish broadcasting”, so I will quickly mention a company called Broadcasting Scotland, which has recently moved into my constituency and created some jobs there. It operates on a shoestring, unlike the BBC, and it is doing a great job.

I was on BBC Scotland’s “Debate Night” programme a couple of weeks ago, and the most perceptive question was from a person who asked whose interest it is in for the BBC to fail or decline. It is worth asking ourselves that question, because in some of the scandals—Russell Brand was mentioned—we should look at the other companies immediately going in against the BBC. There are many very powerful vested interests that want to see the BBC decline. However, I do not—I genuinely want the BBC to prosper.

If we are going to avoid accepting, as so many voices have done in the debate, that what is happening is inevitable and that it could not be better in any alternative world, we must ask some questions of the BBC. The first question would be about trust and relevance. I do not know how many news bulletins the BBC has broadcast on the saga of the ships that were late and vastly over budget—there were bulletins every day of the week at certain points, and there were dedicated documentaries on the issue, as there should be. There should be scrutiny of what Governments do. So, where is the documentary on the Ajax tanks scandal, which involves proportionately more Scottish taxpayers’ money than those ferries? Where is the documentary on the complete collapse of Capita’s recruitment in the armed forces, which directly affects Scotland? We were told that we would have 12,000 service personnel, but we never got close to that. What has BBC Scotland’s approach been on that? What about the replacement communications system for the emergency services? That system is massively over budget. Scotland has been waiting for it for years, yet there has been no inquiry and no attempt to look at those issues.

I mention those issues because one of the witnesses before the Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee this morning talked about something called the Scottish unified audience. That is what a Scottish news programme could have created. That is what was envisaged, to some extent, with the Scottish six—perhaps, as we have ditched “The Nine”, we will ditch “The Seven” and end up with “The Six”, if we have any luck.

The point is that there could be a Scotland-based programme that would talk about all the issues that affected Scotland, including those at a UK level and at an international level as well. If BBC Scotland had that, the chance of rebuilding relevance and trust would be much greater. However, BBC Scotland has put itself into the position whereby it accepts the status quo. It wants to be mindful of its position and not move out of its position. If you do not believe that, look at the BBC website. If you try to get Scottish football results on the BBC website, you will be clicking forever before you get to them, but you will get the other results with no problem at all. That is about Scotland knowing its place, and that is where BBC Scotland has failed.

I will not go over the other points that have been made by many members. However, on the point that only 88 per cent of the licence payers’ money comes back to Scotland, as compared to 110 per cent in Wales—good luck to Wales, because it is doing a great job in getting that—the missing amount is roughly equivalent to the savings that the BBC is now making by cutting these programmes. Of course, that is only about the first £200 million—there is £500 million in savings to be had from the BBC, so what else is going to be cut in Scotland?

The idea that we should just manage the decline, accept that it is inevitable and say that we cannot change it, which is what the motion proposed by the cabinet secretary seeks to do, is a counsel of despair. We must have more ambition, and the BBC must have more ambition than that in Scotland. Far too often, when it comes to saying what should be cut in Scotland, it is just accepted. However, it is not inevitable and it should not necessarily have to happen. What is going to be cut when the BBC comes back for the other £300 million in savings? The recommendations of the committee that I sat on, along with George Adam, Stephen Kerr and others, in the last parliamentary session have not been heeded.

I also echo the comments that have been made about Ofcom. We heard from Ofcom this morning. It has no role whatsoever. It is not eager to exercise any kind of role. Eventually, it conceded that its interest was in making sure that audiences were served—

Katy Clark Lab The Deputy Presiding Officer · West Scotland
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The member will need to wind up.

Keith Brown SNP Clackmannanshire and Dunblane
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And then, at every point when Ofcom was asked to serve that audience, it said, “That’s not for us—it’s for somebody else.” Ofcom is a creature of the UK Government and it is failing—as will the BBC unless it changes.

Katy Clark Lab The Deputy Presiding Officer · West Scotland
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We move to closing speeches. David Green, you have two minutes.

17:12

David Green LD Caithness, Sutherland and Ross
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Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I can see how you are looking at me—I will be as quick as I possibly can be, and I will keep to my two minutes.

I will kick off with Katherine Sangster’s point about solidarity with the staff with regard to the cuts that are happening in BBC Scotland. However, I will add that cuts are happening right across the United Kingdom. The suggestion from some of the members on the Government benches that, somehow, that is not happening is really disappointing. There are cuts of £9 million in Wales and £4 million in Northern Ireland. There are cuts of £500 million right across the country—BBC Three gone, or a whole lot of it gone—so I say that we should stand in solidarity with all the workers, not just those in Scotland.

Victor Currie made some points about digital exclusion in the Highlands and Islands, as did Q Manivannan, and I will support Q Manivannan’s amendment tonight, because they are absolutely bang on about digital exclusion. I thank Q Manivannan for bringing that amendment to the chamber.

I will also briefly highlight the contribution of Anna McPherson in a Press and Journal article a week or so ago. She described the context in which this debate is happening, which is the loss of some of the reporting that we have seen across Bauer Radio and Moray Firth Radio and in the context of STV as well. That was not discussed this afternoon, but it should be remembered, and I thank her for raising that issue.

I think that Murdo Fraser is absolutely bang on—this debate has been way too short. It has not been the best expression of this Parliament, I am afraid to say. We have not been able to properly scrutinise the issues that have come before us. Let me add that the Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee is, right now, spending three weeks looking at media and broadcasting. This debate could have happened after those deliberations, respectful of the committee’s time and our opportunity to look at the subject.

I have here a letter from Ofcom that was sent to the cabinet secretary, in which Ofcom undertakes to carry out some of the engagement on the issues that members have raised. We could have come back and had a proper debate on those issues after the end of that process, but none of that was regarded. Nor have I seen any cross-party leadership from the cabinet secretary—there has been no cross-party engagement from the cabinet secretary on this issue, either. That is why I am deeply disappointed. I will not support the Government’s motion tonight because, frankly, I think that this is about grievance. It is about big P politics, not the workers or the output, which are what we should be debating.

17:14

Stephen Kerr Con Mid Scotland and Fife
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I will be as brief as I possibly can be. I agree with David Green’s latter point: we should have been having this debate after the committee had concluded its inquiry. I hope that we will get that debate—maybe even a committee debate.

George Adam will be shocked and horrified to hear me say how much I agree with his comments. What is even more shocking is that I also agree with what Keith Brown said about Ofcom. Most of the regulators that I have come across in my political life have been utterly hopeless, and Ofcom is definitely in that category.

I do not agree with everything that the BBC does. I have criticised it before and I will criticise it again. When it gets things wrong, it must be held accountable. However, I make no apology for saying that there are things about it that we should be proud of and see as precious and part of our national heritage. Sometimes, we overlook those things.

Calum Kerr SNP Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale
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Will the member give way?

Stephen Kerr Con Mid Scotland and Fife
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I am happy to give way. Well, yes—okay.

Calum Kerr SNP Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale
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I am not doing this to use up all his time, I promise you, Presiding Officer.

Earlier this afternoon, Stephen Kerr used the word “penitence”. Is he at all penitent about his party’s lamentable record on the BBC, from offloading the cost of licences for over-75s to settlements that were stitched up behind closed doors? Does he accept that Scotland is now paying for those choices?

Stephen Kerr Con Mid Scotland and Fife
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That is a rather partisan point to make when I am trying to be bipartisan, reach across the chamber and build a coalition of support for the things that matter the most. Calum Kerr should be ashamed—he has let down the family name very badly with that intervention.

Let us give credit to the BBC for some things and let us get in the trenches and defend the BBC when we should. It has been a powerful means of generating talent. The training opportunities provided by the BBC have given Scotland some of its finest journalists, writers, producers, technicians and performers.

George Adam was not wrong when he talked about the importance of the ownership of the BBC. There is currently a campaign on the BBC called “This is our BBC”, and we should remember that. The international streaming companies that are so popular now come here to make their programmes. Why is that? It is because the BBC, through its training, has created the ecosystem that makes this country exactly the sort of place where those companies want to invest in programme making.

We should not discount the issue of ownership. As I mentioned, it is our BBC, and George Adam was right to mention the concerns that we should all have about Sky, or Comcast, buying ITV. I also fear for the future of STV and agree with Jack Middleton’s comments about STV North, which has been handled in a scandalous way by Ofcom. We have to recognise that the BBC is different. Ultimately, it answers to us—the people of this country—and we should see it as a jewel in the crown.

Viewing habits are changing. We cannot turn back the tide of the way that people consume television programmes—

Katy Clark Lab The Deputy Presiding Officer · West Scotland
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The member will have to wind up.

Stephen Kerr Con Mid Scotland and Fife
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—but that does not mean that there are not questions to be asked about the future of BBC Scotland.

I have one last point. The BBC gives so much to Scotland. We have not mentioned music, and the BBC Scottish symphony orchestra is surely one of the finest orchestras we have.

Katy Clark Lab The Deputy Presiding Officer · West Scotland
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The member must wind up.

Stephen Kerr Con Mid Scotland and Fife
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The BBC is a bulwark against a sea of misinformation and—[Inaudible.]

I have been cut off in my prime.

Katy Clark Lab The Deputy Presiding Officer · West Scotland
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Indeed you have, Mr Kerr.

17:18

Patrick Harvie Green Glasgow
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I put on record my associate membership of the National Union of Journalists.

When I was growing up, my dad worked for the BBC, and I always think that I grew up believing in the BBC despite the BBC. It is sometimes hard to defend its principles when they are not always well executed. The institution has never been free of controversy, but it has shaped the broadcasting landscape of the country for more than a century. What we have inherited is unquestionably far better than the mess that there would have been with a deregulated free market model. That is still true, even after a long-term decline in funding by successive UK Governments.

In defending the BBC’s record, however, I have to say that the BBC itself does not always make that easy. We need to acknowledge that there has been long-standing underserving of Scotland, and I would say that there have been decades of disproportionate prominence of hard-right politics. In recent examples, we have seen minor scandals such as the censoring of pride badges through to major changes such as cuts to journalism and, most recently, the ending of the linear broadcast of the BBC Scotland channel.

As the cabinet secretary, George Adam and a couple of other members have acknowledged, that channel probably had in-built shortcomings. I do not think that its introduction was ever seen as a serious attempt by the BBC to make the channel the primary face of the BBC in Scotland. Some have even said that the channel was doomed to fail. However, none of that justifies how the story has ended.

When combined with earlier cuts, the result is that the BBC’s role is declining in a context that witnesses at this morning’s meeting of the Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee described as an existential crisis for public service broadcasting more generally. Part of that crisis relates specifically to the BBC itself and can be addressed if the UK Government has the will to do so during the charter renewal process. We will soon find out if it has such will. Like the cabinet secretary, I have my doubts, but let us wait and see what the UK Government comes out with.

However, the existential crisis for public service broadcasting also relates to the wider context in which the BBC now operates. Broadcasting—the technology that was an innovation when the BBC was founded—is now part way through the process of being merged with or subsumed by an online landscape that is already more dominant than traditional broadcasting. That online landscape is comparatively unregulated, and it is owned, controlled and manipulated by extremely powerful and wealthy interests around the globe and by political partisans on the extreme anti-democratic and far-right fringes. If we compare the emergence of the new online media with the early days of broadcasting, it is as though the UK had appointed Oswald Mosley as the first director general of the BBC instead of John Reith.

The BBC and other public service broadcasters are being forced to enter into that unregulated space. They are now swimming against a tide of disinformation and radicalising content and are competing on those terms. BBC news programmes are competing with conspiracy theories and artificial intelligence slop, all of which is determined by the YouTube algorithm. Unless the same foresight is shown as was shown at the beginning of the concept of public service broadcasting, and unless public service principles are embedded into the new media platforms, it seems inevitable that those principles simply will not survive in the years ahead and that something of critical importance will be lost.

17:22

David Kirkwood Reform South Scotland
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Katherine Sangster’s amendment refers to terrestrial TV. As has already been noted several times in this debate, the broadcast medium is becoming increasingly irrelevant to the consumption of content. That was first recognised by John Birt when, as director general of the BBC, he sold off all the transmitters. Similarly, Q Manivannan talked about the alternatives to terrestrial broadcasting. Everybody in the Parliament has at least one TV receptor in their pocket, in the form of a mobile phone, and the speed and coverage of fixed broadband are improving all the time.

Murdo Fraser talked about the importance of impartiality, and that is indeed vital. Unfortunately, there is at least one major topic on which the BBC has declared itself partial, so the completely even-handed BBC of yore is long gone. David Green’s amendment neatly encapsulates the problem of defining what the BBC is actually for: is it broadcast journalism, entertainment, cultural preservation, the development of broadcast expertise, the marketing of Scottish interests, all of the above, or something else? However, would the BBC’s professed and treasured independence be bolstered by insisting that its charter be approved by two Governments rather than one?

I am a bit of a bystander in this debate, because I do not pay for a TV licence. I do not need a TV licence because I do not watch broadcast TV—ever since “Top Gear” was cancelled, there has been nothing of interest for me at all on the BBC. When I went to work in Luxembourg in 1998, I was proud to come from a country that could produce something like the BBC. However, that was the first time that I had encountered foreign broadcast news, so I was able to compare BBC World News’s coverage directly with that of other services in the English language and other languages. It became obvious to me that no reporters anywhere were guaranteed to be the absolute paragons of rectitude that I had supposed. Because of that, I have hardly watched any news or current affairs programmes this century, and certainly not uncritically.

There was a time when the BBC provided nearly all my information and much of my entertainment. For years, I would listen to Radio 4 for hours a day, until its once anarchic and inventive comedy programmes became woke and unfunny lectures and its continual preaching on climate change left less and less time for useful factual content. The BBC no longer provides me with any of my information apart from a few pages on its website. That appears to put me on common ground with about 60 per cent of the young people in Scotland.

The corporation’s market share is shrinking and it seems not to understand how to regain its reach and influence. Implicit deference to state broadcasters has gone, and it will not come back. Along with that deference has gone some of the trust, and the influence of well-known faces on the box is waning. The financial cost of broadcasting has dropped massively over the past couple of decades, and an effective TV studio can now be set up in a small cupboard. Broadcasting is becoming democratised, which is a very good thing. We no longer need Auntie Beeb’s permission to use studios or equipment to talk to the world. We just need a mobile phone, an internet connection and society’s permission to speak freely.

Most people do not realise that public service broadcasting is a Scottish invention. The ethos of the BBC in both its guises was set by John Reith—a son of the manse who set out its mission to inform, educate and entertain. It initially did that very well, and its high moral standards, rather than today’s high moral tone, served it—and us—well for many years. However, the days of the celebrity newsreader, the celebrity economist, the celebrity naturalist, the celebrity gardener and the celebrity celebrity ended the BBC’s Reithian mission and it spiralled downwards into being a preachy, unfunny, self-satisfied organisation.

We do not need more BBC; we need a better BBC. In seven weeks’ time, the BBC will celebrate its centenary. The British Broadcasting Corporation was formed on 1 January 1927 out of the British Broadcasting Company. This could and should be a time for introspection and rebirth. Will the BBC reinvent itself and once again shine as the world’s beacon of broadcasting quality and the best global ambassador this country has ever had? Can it?

17:26

Pauline McNeill Lab Glasgow
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Most of us defend the BBC, but that does not mean that we do not have huge criticisms of it. I believe that the important thing is to argue for a better BBC. Despite the scandals that have undermined it—and there have been many—the BBC remains the most trusted news broadcaster. As Stephen Kerr mentioned, the UK consumes more hours of content on BBC iPlayer than on any other provider’s service. Like many others, I am a huge advocate of public service broadcasting in principle, and I believe that, if we were to lose it, we would never get it back. For all its faults, I believe that we have to defend public broadcasting.

The BBC also sets an industry standard. Without it, other sectors of the industry would not be as good. It is a standard bearer. Al Jazeera is largely modelled on the BBC’s international output. My favourite service is probably the BBC World Service, which Kofi Annan once described as a “gift to the world”.

Whether we believe that responsibility for broadcasting should be devolved or not, the BBC must have a substantial presence in Scotland. I guess that the Government and other parties believe that, too. We are a nation and we require specific Scottish output, including current affairs programmes and music. Our culture must be reflected in broadcasting. However, cuts to the BBC budget are being made across the UK, as David Green said, and Scotland is not immune to that.

There is a fine line between holding the BBC to account for all BBC output and for Scottish output. Murdo Fraser made a good speech, but he was not quite right when he said that “The Nine” and “News at Seven” were a sop to the SNP. I have followed the history of this quite closely, and they were not. We used to have “Newsnight Scotland” and now we have “Debate Night”. However, at the time when the channel was created, many people, like me, thought that the output should have been on BBC One Scotland and not on the digital channel. Over the years, there has been a lot of criticism that the viewing figures have not been as high as they would have been had the programmes been on BBC One Scotland.

Maybe that presents an opportunity for Màiri McAllan and others to argue that we should maintain the output—I support that—and that BBC One Scotland is where it should be. We oppose the cuts, and I want to be clear about that.

As for BBC Radio Scotland—this is where the fine line exists—accountability does not mean that we as a Parliament should have a say in its content. However, as BBC audience listeners, many of us have criticisms about the recent reset of BBC Radio Scotland. Despite its changes, including taking off the brilliant Billy Sloan—nobody in Scotland knows more about music than Billy Sloan; I defy anyone to say that they do—and other established disc jockeys in a big shake-up, it has been a complete failure.

I hope that the BBC is listening to its audiences. Sometimes it is about not just renewal and modernisation but realising that the people who have established their music careers are the people that the public, including young people, want to listen to. Research that was conducted by the Scottish music commentator Stephen McAll showed that—as, I think, Pauline Stafford mentioned—releases of new tracks by Scottish artists had fallen by 59 per cent compared with the same period in 2025. He said:

“We need a national station that … plays the carefully chosen, sometimes difficult records that will never test well in a focus group, but change someone’s life when they hear them at midnight.”

I do not believe that the reset of BBC Radio Scotland took that into any account whatsoever. That is a content choice by producers, which has nothing to do with whether we believe that it should be devolved or that it is to do with the Scottish budget. I hope that there will be change.

I think that all the amendments have something in them that we can agree with. Q Manivannan made the important point that, if we disconnect terrestrial digital television, many people will be excluded. That is also true of analogue radio. We should not make such switches if they do not include people. The Tories’ amendment was good, and Murdo Fraser talked about maintaining public trust. David Green talked about the BBC as an institution.

All in all, I have heard from across the parties that it would be a disaster if we lost public service broadcasting. Despite our criticisms, we must defend public broadcasting in the BBC and stand up for Scottish output. That is what Labour will support tonight.

Kenneth Gibson The Presiding Officer · Cunninghame North
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I call Màiri McAllan to wind up the debate.

17:32

Màiri McAllan SNP Clydesdale
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I am grateful to members who have reflected on the debate and recognised the significant impact of the cuts. Those are not stand-alone changes; they exist in the context of years of downward trajectory, as I put it. Others have put it differently.

I will make a point about the technical aspects of the debate. It had to be a short debate, so that other parliamentary business could be timetabled. I should be very glad to come back to the chamber and continue debating the point with members, because it matters to the Government and to parties across the chamber.

Members have reflected concern for staff and journalists. I echo that. I was pleased to hear a reflection of the need for authentic programming and locally relevant news.

I am grateful to those members who spoke to the disparity in funding between Gaelic and Welsh language broadcasting. Katherine Sangster noted that her UK Government colleagues were open to discussion on those matters. That is great news, but I have to say that it is news to me, because, as I said in my opening remarks, my letters to Lisa Nandy of 29 June and 13 October have gone unanswered. I wrote to her again this morning.

I am disappointed that some members—perhaps Labour members in particular—could not support the call for devolution. I am slightly bewildered by the question mark over why it might be needed. It should be obvious to members who sit in the Scottish Parliament how important it is that powers over the things that affect people’s lives in Scotland rest with the Scottish Parliament. I cannot quite imagine how one might explain to a constituent who was raising those matters with an MSP that we should not rather have a Scottish minister to hold to account, or a Scottish parliamentary committee that understood the needs of our communities and could hold to account ministers, the BBC and regulators.

Those calls for devolution are not just the view of the Scottish Government. I was able to discuss the issue with my counterpart, the Welsh Cabinet Minister for Culture and Sport, last week, when we discussed our shared view on the out-of-date, antiquated reservation of broadcasting to Westminster. She and I will continue to co-ordinate with each other to make the case for devolution.

The Tories and Reform seem fairly relaxed about the changes, while other members were keen to highlight some of the risks. I can see risks. One of those is the risk of digital exclusion, which Q Manivannan talked about, as did David Green, who spoke about the rural angle. Reform and the Tories also seemed quite relaxed about the ongoing erosion of public service broadcasting that people trust, and the movement of that discussion to online platforms, which, as we know, are increasingly broad and chronically difficult to regulate. We are in the age of disinformation and misinformation, and we have to ask ourselves who benefits from these discussions happening more online than on a trusted service. Perhaps the answer to that question reveals why Reform is relaxed about the issue.

Victor Currie Reform Highlands and Islands
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Reform’s point is that those using broadcast media are already moving themselves to the online space. I submit that the focus of the cabinet secretary is misplaced. Merely devolving control over broadcast to Scotland will not prevent that migration from standard linear broadcast to the online space that she is raising concerns about.

Màiri McAllan SNP Clydesdale
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Devolution is not a panacea, but we are in a situation in which members of this Parliament are disempowered to do a great deal about the decisions that are taken by the BBC, Ofcom or UK ministers. Every single member of this Parliament should be concerned about that.

Màiri McAllan SNP Clydesdale
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I will not take another intervention.

I close with emphasis on two points that were raised. George Adam said earlier:

“I believe in the BBC and in public service broadcasting, but supporting the BBC does not mean supporting every decision”.

Like Patrick Harvie and Pauline McNeill, who echoed George Adam’s comments, I share that view—I think that the BBC needs to do better.

I want to say a word about Keith Brown’s contribution and his reflections on programme commissioning. I should dearly love to turn on the BBC and see more programming on Scotland’s energy potential, our cultural offer and our history. How many more times do we need to consider the development of Scotland through the prism of the Tudors? I should like to see the use of a lot more Scottish content.

I believe very strongly that cultural understanding is an absolutely critical part of our future success as a nation and in the positive contribution that we can make in the world. Broadcasting and the media are so central to the cultural confidence that we must grow as we move towards independence. I cannot see why those among us who do not support independence would not rather that the powers over those matters were with this Parliament, so I would ask them to join us in expecting and seeking the very best for Scotland, for our culture, for our news, for our view of ourselves and for our place in the world.

Kenneth Gibson The Presiding Officer · Cunninghame North
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That concludes the debate on the BBC and public service broadcasting in Scotland.

Motions, questions and votes

Linked from this item of the Official Report

Votes on these motions that day

  1. 14:00 Time for Reflection Time for reflection · 2
  2. 14:05 Business Motion Business motions · 2
  3. 14:06 General Question Time Questions · 2
  4. 14:06 Flood Forecasting Questions · 8
  5. 14:06 General Practitioner Walk-in Service (Elgin) Questions · 6
  6. 14:06 Proposed Local Government Reform (Convention of Scottish Local Authorities) Questions · 8
  7. 14:06 Colleges (Investment in Infrastructure) Questions · 6
  8. 14:06 Palliative and End-of-Life Care (Glasgow) Questions · 4
  9. 14:06 Learning for Sustainability Questions · 4
  10. 14:06 Centre for Contemporary Arts Building (Actions of Creative Scotland) Questions · 4
  11. 14:06 Nicotine Addiction (Under-18s) Questions · 5
  12. 14:30 Back-bench Members First Minister’s Questions · 1
  13. 14:30 Cladding Remediation Programme First Minister’s Questions · 2
  14. 14:30 Public Service Reform (Worker and Trade Union Representation) First Minister’s Questions · 2
  15. 14:30 Tenant Protection (Lawrie Reilly Place) First Minister’s Questions · 2
  16. 14:30 Hyperscale Data Centres (Impact) First Minister’s Questions · 2
  17. 14:30 Postal Delivery Delays (Impact) First Minister’s Questions · 2
  18. 14:30 Social Security Scotland (Processing Delays) First Minister’s Questions · 2
  19. 14:30 Sexual Violence Against Women (Abuse of Power) First Minister’s Questions · 2
  20. 14:30 Care Inspectorate (Regulation of Childminders) First Minister’s Questions · 2
  21. 14:30 Earned Settlement Scheme First Minister’s Questions · 2
  22. 14:30 Universities (Promoting Scottish Culture) First Minister’s Questions · 2
  23. 14:30 Open Championship 2029 First Minister’s Questions · 2
  24. 14:30 Tackling Rural Crime (Police Station Closures) First Minister’s Questions · 2
  25. 14:30 Public Bodies (Reporting of Bullying) First Minister’s Questions · 2
  26. 14:30 Business Rates Relief First Minister’s Questions · 2
  27. 14:30 Forth Valley Emergency Care (Delays) First Minister’s Questions · 2
  28. 14:30 National Health Service Community Staff (Mileage Rates) First Minister’s Questions · 2
  29. 14:30 Non-domestic Rates (Devolution to Regions) First Minister’s Questions · 2
  30. 14:30 Community Asset Transfer (Support) First Minister’s Questions · 2
  31. 14:30 Places of Worship Fund First Minister’s Questions · 2
  32. 14:30 Accident and Emergency (NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde) First Minister’s Questions · 2
  33. 14:30 Dalzell Steel Plant First Minister’s Questions · 2
  34. 14:30 Stranraer East Pier (Regeneration) First Minister’s Questions · 3
  35. 15:07 Winter Resilience Statement · 32
  36. 15:41 HMP and YOI Polmont Statement · 32
  37. 16:16 BBC and Public Service Broadcasting Debate · 80
  38. 17:38 Decision Time Decision time · 31
  39. 17:51 Supporting Scotland’s Pubs Members’ business · 26

The type of each item (debate, statement, questions, members’ business and so on) and the times shown are worked out by this site from headings, the chair’s opening words and the Official Report’s running timestamps. They are not the Parliament’s own classification. Text: the Scottish Parliament Official Report.