Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the fifth meeting of the Public Petitions Committee in session 4. No apologies have been received. I remind everyone to switch off their mobile phones and all other electronic devices.I welcome our visitors from the Republic of Ireland’s Joint Committee on Investigations, Oversight and Petitions, who are in the public gallery, and I thank them for coming along to our session this afternoon. Item 1 is consideration of new petitions. There are five new petitions to consider today, the first three of which will be considered together. PE1398 is on access to therapy for orphan diseases; PE1399 is on equitable access to therapy for Pompe disease; and PE1401 is on access to therapy for paroxysmal nocturnal haemoglobinuria. Members have the notes from the clerk, the Scottish Parliament information centre briefings and the petitions.I welcome our witnesses: Alastair Kent, chair of Rare Disease UK; Joan Fletcher, family support officer with the Association for Glycogen Storage Disease UK; and Dr Lindsay Mitchell, a consultant at Monklands hospital in Airdrie. I thank you all for coming along today.I invite Alastair Kent to make a short presentation of around five minutes, after which we will move to questions.
Official Report · Committee
New Petitions
Paroxysmal Nocturnal Haemoglobinuria (Access to Therapy) (PE1401)
Speakers
Choose an MSP to read only their contributions- David Stewart Lab 10
- Alastair Kent Rare Disease UK 10
- Nanette Milne Con 4
- Sandra White SNP 3
- Mark McDonald SNP 3
- Bill Walker SNP 3
- Joan Fletcher Association for Glycogen Storage Disease UK 2
- Dr Lindsay Mitchell NHS Lanarkshire 1
- Dr Mitchell 1
- John Wilson SNP 1
The record
38 contributionsThank you for the opportunity to talk to the committee about access to therapies for rare diseases.I begin by assuring you that we are not here to demand a blank cheque. We realise that health resources are limited and that we need a system that is fair and rational in the allocation of those resources. The national health service is based on an assumption that treatment will be delivered according to need rather than according to the individual’s ability to pay. Patients who have rare diseases are in a situation in which, if a therapy is available for them, it is likely to be expensive because of the small number of people who are affected.People with rare diseases do not choose to have a rare disease. There is no kudos attached to having something that is difficult to diagnose, expensive to treat and about which little might be known. It is a tribute to the success of the European Union’s orphan medicinal products policy that we now see therapies becoming available for diseases that have hitherto been untreatable and have led to prolonged and severe ill health and the loss of quality and quantity of life.Getting a therapy on the market is one thing, but getting it into the patient so that they can benefit from it is another. Many of the orphan drugs—the therapies for rare diseases that we are talking about—are life changing. They move a disease from being rapidly progressive and life limiting to one with which a more normal quantity and quality of life can be expected. The problem in Scotland is that patients are not able systematically to access some of those therapies in the way in which they can elsewhere in the United Kingdom and Europe.Our contention is that the mechanisms that are in place in Scotland, either through the Scottish Medicines Consortium or through the individual patient treatment request system, are not fit for purpose. They are more likely to deny patients access to effective therapies than they are to allow it. If there is a notional ceiling of £30,000 per quality-adjusted life year, and a treatment costs perhaps £100,000 per patient, it does not take a complicated sum to work out that the acceptance box is unlikely to be ticked. In the individual patient treatment request system, the practical need to demonstrate exceptionality with small populations that are all pretty well at the same level of need is not fair, reasonable or doable.Some of the treatments might make a small physical difference to the patient but a huge difference to their quality of life. I know one young woman who has an inborn error of metabolism. She receives enzyme replacement therapy, and her lung function has increased by 4 per cent, which for us is a short intake of breath. For her, it means that she can come off artificial respiration for most of the day and that she can go out of the house and be confident that she is not dependent on a machine that might break down at any minute and leave her stranded. It means that when she kisses her partner and it leaves her gasping, it is the emotion and not asphyxiation that produces the reaction. It means that she can think about having a job for the first time.Many other patients who get the benefit of such life-saving therapies gain similarly from the impact on the quality of their lives, even if the physiological changes that they experience from the therapy are objectively quite small.You can imagine the frustration and anguish that families experience when they see a therapy appear and get licensed and they see it working in families in similar positions but they are denied access to it, not on biologically sound grounds or clinically sound determinations between one patient and another, but on economic grounds. Our contention is that Scotland and Scottish patients are getting a raw deal because the system in place to allow such people access to such a therapy is more likely to deny than approve the opportunity for them to get it.The chairman of the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence, Mike Rawlins, once said that sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and pay the cost. Sometimes a lot of money simply has to be spent because that is the measure of our civilisation, care and commitment to meeting the needs of every family and patient through the national health service. However, it is not just about the absolute expenditure of cash on the therapy; the opportunity that is created and the waste of money on ineffective interventions that is avoided need to be factored in.Scotland has taken the lead in providing high-quality NHS services in ways that are often looked to by the rest of the UK and further afield—one need think only of the work of the national services division as a model for many—but, unfortunately, the Scottish system is more likely to say no than yes to access to therapies for rare diseases. Our contention is that the system needs to be looked at to ensure that there is a rational framework that can legitimately distinguish between therapies that will achieve significant changes in patients’ quality or quantity of life and those that will not, and which is based on medical and social needs rather than just the cost of the treatment.
Thank you very much, Mr Kent. That was a helpful introduction. I will kick off with a couple of questions. The other two witnesses should feel free to get involved at any time.Do you notice any differences among health boards’ approaches? Do we have a postcode lottery here? Is there an issue about consultants making good, strong decisions and health board bureaucrats saying no, or is that a simplistic analysis of where the problem lies?
It would be appropriate to ask my two colleagues to comment on those issues.
We have definitely found that some health boards have accepted treatments for patients whereas others have not. We have three patients in Scotland on treatments, but two other patients have been refused them and four applications are pending. Therefore, we have found that there is a postcode lottery.
I work in the Scottish PNH outreach clinic in Monklands, which all Scottish patients with rare diseases can be referred to for access to specialist advice. We give advice to referring haematologists throughout Scotland, including advice on whether we think that the patient should be treated with a therapy, although our recommendation does not automatically mean that the patient will access it. Seven patients are on treatments in Scotland, three patients for whom we recommended treatment have been refused it, and one application is pending. It is difficult to say whether there is definitely a postcode lottery, but things are, of course, very difficult when we recommend a therapy for a patient that is then refused by the health board in whose area the patient resides.
Thank you. That is very useful.
I welcome the witnesses to the committee.Three petitions that refer to similar issues have been submitted. My question is about PE1398. Paragraph 11 of paper PPC/S4/11/5/1 from the clerks says:“As part of the process NHS Boards were”not so much ordered but were“to have written policies in place for dealing with such requests”.That was mentioned in Alastair Kent’s introductory remarks. Have all the NHS boards achieved that?
To be honest, I am not sure, but I do not think so. We certainly do not have copies of those policies from all the boards.14:15
We certainly have a policy in Lanarkshire. My understanding is that, in most health boards, if a policy is not in place, one is about to be ratified and will be in place.
That leads me to the observation that, if we were to continue the petition, we would want such information to be brought to the committee, as there are no particular dates by which the written policies should be in place. I would like the committee to follow up that issue. I will leave it at that, as I know that other members want to come in.
I have a question for Mr Kent. I am particularly interested in point 3 in the background information to the petition on the “Assessment of Orphan Medicines” and the role of the advisory group for national specialist services in England. Can you elaborate on AGNSS and its work? I know that that work is taking place in England. Do you see it moving into Scotland? Do you know whether there is any intention for such a system to be adopted in Scotland?
The advisory group for national specialist services is a multidisciplinary group, which has been set up to advise the Secretary of State for Health in England on not only medicines but all forms of intervention that come before it for services that affect fewer than 500 patients in England. Those are highly specialised interventions for very small numbers of patients.The system works because it recognises that, in dealing with either very rare conditions or very complicated interventions, the evidence base that you could expect in dealing with a much bigger population is unlikely to exist. You therefore have to make an evaluation and a judgment based on the evidence that you have, in the expectation that you can put further steps in place to evaluate the impact of the intervention as the data is concluded.Among the issues are clinical effectiveness; the scientific rationale for the intervention; the input from different stakeholders, including patients and families, on the impact of the disease or condition on the patient’s quality and quantity of life; the aspects of the disease that will be ameliorated by the proposed treatment; the cost of the intervention; and the cost of other available services. Whether or not patients get the treatment, they will have expectations of services from the NHS.The advisory group—AGNSS, as we know her—makes a recommendation based on a case that has been put to it, usually by a lead clinician with the support of colleagues. The secretary of state is then minded either to accept or not to accept. As you know, proposed changes to the system in England are currently before Parliament but, if the secretary of state retains the power under the new system, he will be able to dictate to the national commissioning board that a service be provided. Otherwise, the case may go to the national commissioning board with a recommendation for provision.That system means that patients can expect a uniform standard of service across England. There may be designated centres that provide the service, as with, for example, the inborn errors of metabolism. In that situation, patients have to go to an expert centre to access the service, which means that the quality of service, the cost implications and so on can be controlled. The system does not require the same volume of evidence as a NICE single technology or multiple technology appraisal, because it reflects the reality of knowledge about the situation and the condition.
Patients in England with the condition are treated in various centres that are overseen by AGNSS. All patients in England with Pompe disease have access to treatment, which is available at the request of the treating consultants. About 90 or so patients in England are being treated, as were the patients in Scotland. However, there are quite a few who cannot access the treatment.
Thank you for that. Given that there would be significantly fewer patients with orphan diseases in Scotland, could AGNSS easily translate into the Scottish scene?
There is already input from the Scottish health department in that regard, as it sits as an observer on AGNSS, so you would not have to reinvent the wheel and carry out an adaptive process in Scotland from scratch. You could take the information from AGNSS and transpose it into a Scottish context in a relatively straightforward manner.
Are the observers from Scotland from the SMC or are they specialists in various diseases?
They are from the Scottish Government’s health department.
I have several questions, but I might not need to ask some depending on the answers. The QALY limit tends to be set at £30,000. How many of the available treatments would fall within the £30,000 QALY for these rare diseases?
Most of them tend to come above the £30,000 per QALY limit because they are usually novel therapies that have developed at the edge of research and require innovative technologies to be delivered. They will have been developed with a high investment in research and development. A couple of the ultra-orphan conditions may come under the £30,000 limit, but the majority of them come above that threshold.
If the QALY was to be increased for the treatment of these diseases, what would be a realistic upper limit?
The QALY is not an appropriate model to use as a threshold. The rhetoric is that a QALY provides an opportunity for comparing across interventions and diseases. Our problem with the QALY methodology is that it assumes that there is evidence at the point of evaluation or that it is relatively easy to generate the evidence in order to compare apples and oranges or fish and fowl. NICE looked at the possibility of extending the QALY system—its QALY evaluation process—particularly to the ultra-orphan conditions, which are the ones that we are looking at. It said that, although the process was theoretically applicable, the quality and quantity of the data would require such huge assumptions that no conclusions could be confidently based on the outcome of the process.We need to move away from the idea of using a model that is driven by assumptions of health technology appraisal, which can produce hard and objective data about what a particular intervention does or does not do. Instead, we need to broaden the criteria and look at the clinical context, the biological knowledge about the disease and the intervention, such as it is known, the social impact of the condition on families and on patients’ broader confidence that the NHS will be there for them, and the economic cost of doing nothing or carrying out ineffective interventions.
I am sorry to cut you short, Mr McDonald, but we are running out of time.
I will try to encapsulate everything in my final question. Is the concern that if you were to remove or adjust the QALY threshold people would start asking why other areas in which treatments are beyond the £30,000 limit could not be considered? Do you contend that, because of the rarity of the diseases that you are talking about, an exception could be made without the worry of setting a precedent for other disease treatments?
Yes. That is exactly the case. For any one of the ultra-orphan conditions, we are probably talking about between one and a couple of dozen patients throughout Scotland. We need to take such patients outside the mainstream system and find a way of responding to their absolutely legitimate expectation that the NHS is for them as well as for everyone else, without opening the floodgates to expectations that the NHS will provide whatever we want whether or not it works, which is clearly unreasonable.
We are talking about rare conditions that involve patients in their twos and threes—or maybe fives and sixes. I have a business background in medical technology. Are there opportunities for economies of scale? Can we get health boards to bring in more patients? Is there scope for the unit cost per treatment to be brought down below the limit? If we measure things in ones and twos, the costs are high, but if we bring everyone together from different sources the unit costs should drop.
I am not qualified to talk about the price of the product, which is a matter for negotiation with the company that manufactures it. However, in Scotland there are centres of expertise in the care and management of particular rare diseases. The introduction of the European Union cross-border healthcare directive presents an opportunity to create the critical mass of expertise that would potentially bring patients with specified rare diseases from all over Europe. Those patients would bring with them the resource that would help to sustain the particular Scottish infrastructure for the care and management of the conditions.I do not know whether the manufacturers of particular therapies would be prepared to do a deal on the price—I am not qualified to comment on that—but there is certainly an opportunity to build on Scotland’s expertise and create economies of scale.
That was an interesting point. We might write to procurement Scotland, which has the job of trying to find the most efficient way of accessing drugs, to ask for more information on policy in the area.We have run out of time, but I ask Mr Kent to stay with us for a second. Members have seen the paper by the clerk, which sets out options. Some members have said that it would be useful to continue our consideration of the petition and write to the Scottish Government. Does the committee agree to do that?
I agree that we should write to the Scottish Government. I suggest that we also write to the Scottish Medicines Consortium to ask for its views on the petition, in light of the petitioner’s comments. I was going to say that we should write to a number of health boards but, having read the accompanying material, I suggest that we seek the specific views of NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde and NHS Ayrshire and Arran on the petition.
Is the committee agreed?Members indicated agreement.
I suggest that we also ask the Government officials who observed AGNSS’s work for their views on the group’s operation and whether such an approach would work in Scotland.
Thank you for that.
It would be worth while investigating procurement. If we can achieve economies of scale, we should do so, because it would mean more treatments.
So we should send a letter to procurement Scotland.
Indeed.
We should also write to NHS boards to find out how many of them have put in place the written policies. Moreover, given that under a European directive plans for rare diseases need to be in place by 2013, we should in our letter to the Government ask whether it will follow the recommendation from the Council of the European Union in that respect.
That is a good point. Is the committee agreed?Members indicated agreement.
In conclusion, the committee has agreed to continue this very important set of petitions and to write to the various bodies that have been identified. I thank our three witnesses for attending the meeting and providing some helpful evidence. We will continue the petition in order to get more information, and our officials will keep you informed of progress.I suspend the meeting for a couple of minutes to allow our next witnesses to take their places.14:31 Meeting suspended.
14:32 On resuming—
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